Speaker 1 00:00:06 Welcome to, I see what you mean a podcast about how people get on the same page or don't, or perhaps shouldn't today. My guest is Karen Newnham, a friend and colleague who was an artist, turned marketing executive. Kara, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 00:00:19 Hey, thanks, Luke. Glad to be here.
Speaker 1 00:00:21 Thank you. I'm glad to be talking to you. I'm looking forward to our conversation. Why don't you give listeners a short bio about yourself?
Speaker 2 00:00:28 All right. So, wow. I, uh, I work in
Speaker 1 00:00:32 Artists, turned executive part,
Speaker 2 00:00:35 So yeah, I have degrees in theater, art and writing, and you know, didn't know what to do and spent my twenties doing things like retail management and advertising and writing and producing murder mysteries up and down the east coast. And I ended up producing music in dance for four years for a nonprofit. I taught college for seven years and just had this amazing journey. And then one day I saw, yeah, I saw a marketing job advertised in it and I went, I can do that. And I acted my way through eight interviews and have been in it channel marketing ever since
Speaker 1 00:01:13 Interviews,
Speaker 2 00:01:15 There were eight interviews. I think they were just waiting. They were waiting. Yeah. Look at her background. She's gotta be a big goofball, but also an after. So we had no chance.
Speaker 1 00:01:28 That's so cool. Well, you made it wow. That was a heck of a screening to get through. You made it and I've always been intrigued by your work in channels. So maybe we talk a little bit about it. I just think that's a pretty cool piece or segment of marketing covers a lot of things.
Speaker 2 00:01:44 Yeah. Yeah. I love it. So I landed here yeah. 20 years ago and somehow it just stopped. So in my mind, the biggest difference is that some marketers market directly to end-users and I market through other people to end users. So people either know channels or they don't at its simplest a channel simply around to market. So it's indirect route to market business, to business companies, use other people to sell other things to end users. And I get to work with those other people and be a marketing consultant and give them strategy and direction and help them market our software into the, uh, into the business
Speaker 1 00:02:26 Presents some interesting. I know there's, there's some business advantage to it, the challenge to it for you as it presents some interesting requirements for getting people on the same page. So you're working with people who they'll make the sales. So you gotta like, like there's, uh, a linkage there or a joint there that has to move and, you know, coordination to get, to make the sale. We'll talk about that.
Speaker 2 00:02:48 Yeah. Yeah. You know, some people it's funny, most of our colleagues outside of the channel don't understand that part. And they'll say, just get your partners to do this, do that, but really it's a sales job, right? So you have to get on the same page with somebody who's selling the products or sometimes a hundred other vendors. So it's not only you have to have a good product and a good solution. That's impacting the industry, right. That's impacting businesses, but you also have to be good with people and see things from their perspective and be respectful. And so it's, it's
Speaker 1 00:03:24 Part, part
Speaker 2 00:03:25 Marketing. Oh, absolutely. That's the fun part.
Speaker 1 00:03:29 You have to have a relationship with them. That's fascinating. Let's talk about that. You don't know this, but our post-college twenties have, we're like a parallel universe.
Speaker 2 00:03:40 I'm not surprised, but I don't know
Speaker 1 00:03:41 Because I did. So I did some writing too. In fact, when I graduated from college, I was very interested in writing, which I had done a bit of in college, dramatic writing theater, creative writing, um, psychology and politics. I had a lot of poly psy courses and I spent some time in my twenties sort of dabbling in those in different ways And did some writing. Um, didn't do it as much as you did or maybe published, but a buddy and I did write a screen, a TV movie and attempted to shop it around. Yeah. It was fun. It was a lot of,
Speaker 2 00:04:15 I, I feel like all of those skills, you know, the acting and the writing and even, you know, the painting and things I did, they all lend to, they lend to what you do later in your career. Right. It lets you step onto a stage with 5,000 people in the audience and have fun. Right. It lets you step into a job interview and think that it's fun or you someone and have a good time. So yeah. It's good.
Speaker 1 00:04:39 True. That's a good point. Yeah. One of my professors in the drama department and I took writing courses there, I didn't and I, and I, he, I would attend plays and I didn't, but I was just writing was my, was my interest in it here. That'd be step up on stage when he let me go. I step up on stage and I did a quick reading. It was the most self-consciously awkward thing I had ever done at that, to that point in my life. That was really difficult. I thought, I mean, I just ran off of there as fast as I could thinking. Wow, very impressive that people get up there and occupy a character and just go and have fun with it. But you just said a moment ago have fun with it.
Speaker 2 00:05:18 Well, it's funny because I think acting for me, you're somebody else. So there's no, self-conscious, it's stepping out on stage to talk about something, to be an expert, to a directly engage in audience. But I think that it's a gift. I was very, very awkward and very shy all through high school and very, very insecure. And so it's a very, very different universe where I get charged. I love it.
Speaker 1 00:05:45 Well, you have no trouble with imposter syndrome. Do you?
Speaker 2 00:05:49 Not at all. We
Speaker 1 00:05:50 Talked about a lot of things as we were preparing for the show, we'll try to get to each, but let's start with one that I think is a good starting place. You've developed a practices for yourself over a years for what my phrase was, was getting on the same page with yourself. Some things you did that are personal, that might have personal results for you, but have results in work to have, have effects in your work. So let's start with, if you, if you don't mind, let's start with those because I think it's a good starting place for talking about, well, what does that mean then when you're trying to get on the same page with others and then some of the things we talked about and we'll get to.
Speaker 2 00:06:26 Yeah, absolutely. So it's interesting. I didn't realize there was a parallel, right until I got into this career path, because it's, when you're teaching college courses or working in a nonprofit, where are you? The only one in the office, you know, all of these interesting things, you don't realize that everything you carry all these years as a human being comes with you into the office, it's impossible, right. For it not to. Right. And it occurred to me. And it's funny, I was thinking imposter syndrome, because back then it was codependency was the big thing. It's still a thing. Right. And I knew I was codependent and I couldn't say no to anything. And so that was probably the first thing I realized in my thirties was I was doing a lot of work on myself to be more self-aware and understand why I made the decisions I was making and make better decisions.
Speaker 2 00:07:21 And I would look at people around me who couldn't say no to anything, family asking for too much friends asking for too much strangers asking for too much. And I thought, gosh, how do you say no? I felt, you know, at 30, which is ridiculous. I felt stretched in too many directions. And then I realized the same thing was happening at work. Like I was unable to say no. So I was setting myself and my team up for failure. I wasn't delivering the results I wanted to deliver because there was no way. So I really felt like my entire thirties, when I look back was about that, how do I say no? Before I can get on the same page with others around me? How do I get on the same page with myself? How do I make my words equal? What I know needs to happen. So I know I only have so much bandwidth. Why are you saying yes. You're not even respecting yourself. Right? Exactly. So I really looked at my thirties that way. And it's so funny. You say, you don't see this in me, but I'm a little hotheaded and that's something that I've worked on through my entire human hood, much less my personal career. Yeah. So it was like, how do I say no? And how do I do a gracefully and respectfully,
Speaker 1 00:08:32 Uh, so that you didn't let frustration build up. Having said yes, too many times, frustration and builds. You're not angry with someone else. You're actually getting angry with yourself, But you take it out on somebody else.
Speaker 2 00:08:43 Exactly. And that person who asks for the one thing <inaudible>
Speaker 2 00:08:50 Exactly, and it's, it's, it's not great, right? You, you know, this is a way to look at it too, because every decade for me, it was like, I am giving away my power and I don't mean power in, you know, I'm a new power hungry, but my ability to impact change depends on me being respected and making people feel good about themselves and being a good leader. And when you give that away or you show a chink, you can be human, but when you show a capacity to, to be unkind or disrespectful or, or lose your temper, right. You lose that.
Speaker 1 00:09:24 Sure.
Speaker 2 00:09:25 So, and it coincided with my foray into it marketing Channel because it was different. You know, I was putting on a suit and going to work and sitting in a big office and had, and had to interact with executives also in suits. It was a total different, totally different world than I'd ever experienced. So I feel like that was really my thirties. Then just start looking. Okay, well that took 10 years. That's kind of a long time. What's the next thing that I really feel like is getting in my way. And it really,
Speaker 1 00:10:03 Over that time, let me ask you, did you practice some things, do you remember a book called when I said, no, I feel guilty.
Speaker 2 00:10:11 I do remember that book. I
Speaker 1 00:10:12 Don't know how I worked, how it was in the house. I stumbled upon that when I was still in high school and I, I read it and I actually remember learning a lot from it. It helped me in ways that I didn't, I wasn't seeking out self help at the time, but it had a very positive effect on me. And I think it's still in print. Did you, did you try things then? And so you recognize this challenge. You faced in yourself about yourself with your decision-making, with your communication, with not saying no we're taking on to it, then what kind of things did you try to change? That
Speaker 2 00:10:47 I am a huge believer in therapy and I've gone to therapy on and off since I was probably 19 years old. Right. Whole other story. But I knew I had to make changes. My trajectory was not good, but it really started for me the, about navigating the world with all the stuff I worked through in my twenties, all the emotional garbage that's still follows me through my life and my thirties were about, okay, how do I really, now that I have a better understanding of these things sure. Work on healing myself so that they're not having negative impact. So it's a good question. How do I do it? I put notes up a lot notes on the
Speaker 1 00:11:23 Mirror. That piece of it.
Speaker 2 00:11:25 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:11:26 Because that's just a time when you spend time with somebody and you reflect on these things and you make a plan for when you leave, they're trying something different. Okay.
Speaker 2 00:11:32 Absolutely. And you know, one of the things you were saying, I think what it does is when you say, how do you do that? How do you practice? How do you make new habits?
Speaker 1 00:11:41 Right.
Speaker 2 00:11:41 And there's so much fascinating research on that right now, to how long it takes to create a habit. It helps with that because you're, you are creating a habit. You're going once a week or you're going once a month and you're talking and you're seeing patterns and you can definitely create some
Speaker 1 00:11:55 Habits that way. Yeah. Good point.
Speaker 2 00:11:57 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:11:58 And then you chunked through, you got into the professional world, meaning the marketing professional world. Who's Karen, who, D w what'd you find out about Karen there and that suit in those meetings? What kind of things did you face next that you worked on for yourself? For?
Speaker 2 00:12:14 Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Gosh, what I found is, is kind of fun and amazing. And I think the whole other conversation, but I struggled for a long time to define myself personally versus professionally, but that's a whole other whole other topics. So really for me taking things personally, I took everything personally. Right. Okay. What do you mean? You don't like me? Like, I'm, I'm pretty fabulous. Like, wait, wait a minute. What I got this person needs to like, to me, like, it was so foreign to me that in my personal life, Nope. Not everyone needs to like me and some people aren't, but that's not possible because I'm me and I'm kind. And um, so that was, I wouldn't have you go below. Right. People don't like me, but what I realized was it was destroying me at work and, and made some jobs difficult. Right. Because you're miserable every day when you're, so self-centered that it's about you and you're not focused on the overall goal or the people around you. It can, it can be destructive. And I don't think I, you know, I wasn't destroying my career, but I probably cut some opportunities short because I was taking things. So personally I couldn't see through it to the opportunity. I couldn't see through it to what was actually there for me to, to grow. So I think it probably cuts some of that off.
Speaker 1 00:13:38 Yeah. Even if you didn't destroy things or maybe you did miss opportunities, you probably, you certainly made a lot of things. You did data week to month more difficult for yourself.
Speaker 2 00:13:48 Absolutely. Right.
Speaker 1 00:13:50 Because
Speaker 2 00:13:52 There
Speaker 1 00:13:52 Were certainly legitimate things you had to concern yourself with, with a task, a project, a deliverable, a meeting, right. There's real things in the business world you've got to manage. And if on top of that, you're personalizing some of those things. That's hard.
Speaker 2 00:14:06 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:14:07 So how'd you get some distance how'd you put some distance in that, how'd you go? You know what, there's a difference between the work stuff that they might or might not somebody might've objected to a proposal you made and you said, but that doesn't mean they're rejecting me. How did you figure that, that piece?
Speaker 2 00:14:23 We had good question. So I had a couple of good mentors along the way who were open enough to share that with me or cared enough. Right. So at the same time I was learning how not to take things personally. I'd also had to learn how to take constructive feedback. Right. And how horrible does that feel like you do like me? And you're telling me that I did this horrible thing or my work isn't good. So, you know, Josh, I hate to even say this, but I have two amazing parents. My father's passed two of the most amazing humans you've ever met. Didn't parent us the way I parented mine,
Speaker 1 00:15:06 You know?
Speaker 2 00:15:07 And I feel like they missed out on some amazing things by not being introspective. So I, I had two things, whole other vein. I don't want to take us down, but it's important. I wanted to be a strong enough person not to do the same thing right. In my personal life and professional life. And when I lost my parents, which I knew I would, I wanted to be at peace. So in conjunction with working on professional, personally, I had to find forgiveness without an apology, which was amazing. Whole other story.
Speaker 1 00:15:45 That's a tough one.
Speaker 2 00:15:46 Yeah. I was telling someone about it last night, honestly, an amazing sermon from my rabbi made me realize the free right. Freedom you can get, she was all about forgiveness. And
Speaker 1 00:15:58 So that was a flash of insight. You heard something and you went, it just was the light bulb went on.
Speaker 2 00:16:03 Absolutely. Yeah. Yeah. So, and it did translate professionally because Yeah, I mean, to me it was just this, someone said this to me the other day, someone was being poorly behaved at work. And I was in an amazing leadership forum. I just joined. And this person was talking about this insulin subordinate who is disrespectful. And another one of the people on the call said, if you good person, and she said, what do you mean? And the other woman said, does he get up in the morning and kick the dog?
Speaker 1 00:16:36 Right?
Speaker 2 00:16:37 Oh no, this is a good person. So I need to forgive whatever is causing this at work. Right. Or, okay, is this a bad person? Do they kick the dog? No. Do they like me? No, but they're not a bad person. Right. I just not, everyone's going to like me. And so it was this whole
Speaker 1 00:16:55 And I could still manage them. They could do a good job. We could get a job done,
Speaker 2 00:16:59 Not going to take it personally. And the sound so harsh, but it is more important for me to be respected and liked. I like to think they both come hand in hand. I think I'm kind and fair and all of those things, but I'm just not going to be,
Speaker 1 00:17:12 You can't control. But as a manager, you want to be respected. Otherwise you can't get a job done.
Speaker 2 00:17:20 You can't, you can't. And if someone says, ah, gosh, she can, you know, I, I,
Speaker 1 00:17:25 Well, people might say, people might say, um, you know, I like Karen at any of, uh, talking to you. So I've used your name, but it applies to all of us. I like Karen. I probably wouldn't hang out with her over the weekend, but I like working with her. I'm learning something. She runs the team. Those are the, that's the kind of you separate those things. Those, those, not those worlds. But we've got to think about those things separately
Speaker 2 00:17:49 About, I have a couple of women in my life. Who've come with me earlier in their careers from job to job. I've taken them with me. And every one of them has said to me, you are not the easiest person to work for. They've made me better too. Like being conscious that just because I work 60 hours a week, I can't expect that from everyone else. And, and even though I wasn't expecting it, I was saying things that made them feel that way. Exactly. But I would rather, and their friends outside of work, I would rather have people say, gosh, we really love Karen, but I learned nothing from her. She just, wasn't a great boss, but I really love her. I'd rather them say, gosh, you know, sometimes she's difficult, but I learned so much and I'm thankful for my career. Right. So, and I think all of that went together and it was thanks to a couple mentors who cared enough to say, you're holding yourself back. You've got to stop. You've got to stop. And I'm so lucky I mentor a lot because I feel like I was given so much. Yeah. So I think that's really, really important. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:18:56 That's very cool. I want to shift in a second because this is a great sort of stepping stone for what we could talk about next. I want to share something with you. My first real job out of college, besides odd jobs I did was when I was in a community mental health center. Remember I said, one of the three things I was exploring in my twenties is like psychology. It was a fabulous job. We worked with severely, mentally disabled adults in a daycare setting, residential of VOC rehab, right. Different settings. And I learned so much that I've used all my life about it as a 24, 7 operations. So three shifts of staff. Yeah. And, and you have to be tight as a staff because you know, you're a parent kids, you know, have kids can split parents. Kids can, these clients, they were clients to us.
Speaker 1 00:19:47 They weren't patients to us. We weren't doctors in hospitals. We were, they were clients. They were beautiful people. They were wonderful, wonderful people. We all got to love them very much. They suffered greatly. We love them very much. It's split us in a heartbeat. I had manipulator. Oh yes. Yes. So we had, we had to be really tight. Um, one of the ways that we did professional development and I'm in my twenties was w we did what was called supervision, which often is twice a year. In some circumstances, every two weeks, Karen, every two weeks, you're sitting down with your supervisor to talk about performance issues. And we did it 360 before it was called that because my supervisor was in direct contact with the same clients. So they reasoned sure. I'm the supervisor. And there were others in different departments, all in contact with the same clients. I should give my staff feedback, but they should give me feedback about observations they've made with, uh, me with the clients. I'm like, What, what we're going to do. What I not only had to learn to take constructive feedback. I had to learn to give constructive feedback.
Speaker 2 00:21:04 It's harder. I think it's harder.
Speaker 1 00:21:07 Well, you know, if it's your job and you want to keep your job and you're going to do this every two weeks, you'd figure out, I bet I've got to do it. I've got to get good at it. And it benefited me enormously, Karen and my whole life.
Speaker 2 00:21:19 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:21:20 Yeah, it was really, it was really, it was a, the job was an awesome experience for so many reasons. I wanted to share that with you because of your comment about how do I take constructive criticism. So thank you for sharing some things that are were very personal. We all have them. We all start there. What I mean by that is what we bring to work. Like you said, we bring our whole selves to work. And if at work as a manager and you're right now, and maybe for some years, you've been above mid-level manager, you're up there, higher in the hierarchy, right?
Speaker 2 00:21:54 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:21:55 So you have responsibility for getting people on the same page,
Speaker 1 00:22:00 In different ways. We can talk about what that means in your work, but just generically, I'm thinking there's a relationship between you being on the same page with yourself and how you interact with others and how you get others on the same page as a team. And I'm thinking that if you hadn't managed some of these things, as you've had, have you, as you have over decades where you've got some peace with yourself and you are on more on the same page with yourself, if you hadn't done that, people can see it. People can detect it. So while you're trying to manage others, mentor others, lead others, get people on the same page. I think people detect it. And there's a lack of credibility in us. And maybe lack of trust in us, we might be saying the right thing, but if we're not walking the talk, people see it. So you set yourself up for some professional success by the personal things you did. What did you see as the relationship or what do you see now as a relationship between you being centered, sort of on the same page as yourself, or if you fall off, you know, you know how to get back on the same page with yourself and getting on the same page with your team or keeping your team on the same page with you and each other. What's the relationship.
Speaker 2 00:23:12 I love that people can't see I'm smiling because I had to get on the same page with myself and someone else this week. So, Yeah, because on top of everything else I, I has, I hate when people talk about being emotional at work and you picture, especially women, right? Weeping or crying or screaming because that 1950s perception still exists. But when I say get emotional,
Speaker 2 00:23:44 I feel so there's a quote in my office. I'm going to read it to you. So this has been my key to success. And to Victor Frankl, between stimulus and response, there is a space in that space is our power to choose our response in our response lies our growth and our freedom. And it's across from my desk because that is my reminder. And I look at it every morning that you have to take a breath getting on the same page with yourself means you slow your mouth down so that it's in line with your rational thinking, right. Which is important at work. So yeah, sometimes I don't do that. That's my, that's what I'm working on in my fifties. But I'm super open with the people I work with. So I do do a lot of cross-functional work. So I have a team, we have teams that support us. We support other teams
Speaker 1 00:24:52 Before you at you're answering the question I asked you, but before you go on, can we stay on that quote for a minute?
Speaker 2 00:24:57 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:58 I've read Victor Franco is years ago. I've never, don't remember that line. I love that line.
Speaker 2 00:25:04 Right. There's a
Speaker 1 00:25:05 Space between stimulus and response where you can make a choice.
Speaker 2 00:25:10 Yeah. And that's where your power and your freedom lies
Speaker 1 00:25:13 In that
Speaker 2 00:25:13 Space. Yeah. Right? Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:25:16 Well, knowing his experience, we know what that meant to him. Uh, and, and, but, but it's very profound. And so when you read that, what was the, what was the click? What was the epiphany I called this podcast. I see what you mean for that. Very reason when you have that aha moment ago. Wow. I see what that means for what would how'd you, what was that about for you?
Speaker 2 00:25:39 It was so huge. I, I'm a, I'm a quick thinker and I'm a quick tour and I see a problem and I fix it and I see an injustice and I say something, it's my responsibility to fix the world. Gotcha. And everybody in it. So It gave me a break to go, wow. You know, that trigger response nine times out of 10, isn't the right response.
Speaker 1 00:26:05 Like an exhale, like,
Speaker 2 00:26:07 Oh yeah. Because you're like, oh my gosh, that's the secret. Keep your mouth shut. And think the beauty of that space, just because you say something to me, I don't have to respond right away. I can take a moment just because I see an injustice doesn't mean I have to throw on my Cape. And, and so that's funny too. Cause behind me, there's another quote that says I'm fairly certain that given a Cape and a nice Tiara, I could save the world.
Speaker 1 00:26:40 I love it.
Speaker 2 00:26:41 They're like in juxtaposition is two quotes that I can get up and slow down and make better decisions.
Speaker 1 00:26:52 You're in juxtaposition to yourself. That's hysterical.
Speaker 2 00:26:56 Yeah. It's really funny. So
Speaker 1 00:26:58 Can I, you know what, I, I I've had that experience myself, where if you slow down and reflect for even a few seconds, I have noticed, I might still say or do what I was about to say or do, but it comes out different
Speaker 2 00:27:13 Bingo. Yeah. For sure. If it
Speaker 1 00:27:15 Was more reactive like that, you know, real fast reaction, it might be harsher. It might be, I don't know. There's some things about it that they come across in ways. I really wouldn't. I don't think were helpful, but if I pause, I might say, or do the same thing, but by being more intentional, I noticed I had more control over it. Meaning
Speaker 2 00:27:37 Me
Speaker 1 00:27:39 Not the situation. I had more control over myself and I could operate better in the situation. Or I think I could operate more effectively in it.
Speaker 2 00:27:46 Absolutely. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:27:48 The, the method I told you, I was working on the come for coaching. That Frankl quote captures
Speaker 2 00:27:55 It. Oh, I love it.
Speaker 1 00:27:56 It's that moment I'm calling it. The cue methods cue. I'm talking about people picking up communication cues and I'm talking and I'm going to teach people how to create that moment, that the quote highlights.
Speaker 2 00:28:11 Wow.
Speaker 1 00:28:12 So the idea is there's more to communication than what's the words that were said. And there's more to what the words that were heard of the reaction we had. If you pick up on some cues and follow the cues, instead of following your reaction to them, that takes two different places. If I follow my reaction to a cue and I say, Karen folded her arms across her chest. I'm just dismissing her. It might've been, if I checked out the what, the, what, what I saw, what it meant, it might've been, um, cold.
Speaker 2 00:28:44 I got,
Speaker 1 00:28:44 I gotta get outta here. It might've been, uh, I'm hungry and my stomach was growling. I was trying to cover it. Right. It might have been something else. That's a trite example, but it illustrates the importance of it. If we see the cues and, and ask about them, we can, we can generate a different conversation with that information and we can lead to different. And I'm trying to help teams build a shared knowledge and a shared intent by doing this that they otherwise wouldn't have. So the quote just knocked me out.
Speaker 2 00:29:15 I'm so glad you did it knocked me out too. I just, it, to me, it's so impactful. It's like, oh my gosh, this is what I need to work on. And that would have kept me from having to apologize
Speaker 2 00:29:29 To me admitting that you're wrong and apologizing. I think there's power in that. So yeah, I did that. I was in a situation with someone much younger than me at work. And this individual, I felt had crossed some lines, but in all fairness, it's a stressful situation. There's not enough information. Nobody has the right swim lanes. This is a good human being who, who is like, like I was at his age and just hungry. And, and I was sharp with him. I don't yell. I'm not what I was sharp. You know, what are you doing? Like I just did stay in your swim lane. Right. So I hung up the phone and I was like, ah, I did it again. But I'm only three years into my fifties. So I get a pass. I have seven more years.
Speaker 2 00:30:18 So I called, I called this person's boss. Who's also someone I respect and a mentor. And I said, I did it again. And he talked with me through it and I'm like, I know I have to fix it. I know I'm doing it. Anyway. I, I set up a meeting with the, the young man this week. And I apologize because what I did with him is what I usually do proactively with my team. And I say, I'm going to give you a glimpse into me because a, I think it helps people get on the same page with me and B I hope they learn something. Yeah. So I go through the decades and I say, you ran into what I'm working on this decade. And that is taking a space and not reacting emotionally, but, but processing, and I'm sorry, I I'm sorry if I hurt your feelings. And he was fantastic. He said, you did really hurt my feelings and I'm not embarrassed to say that. And this is why. And we had this amazing conversation. I loved it. And my, I told my mentor and he said, that's what I like about you. You take constructive feedback. So I feel like if I can be humble and I can apologize to people around me when I have screwed up and I will publicly apologize, you know, honestly happened a couple months ago on a, on a huge call. Somebody was so disrespectful to me and I just tried everything. Let's, let's take this offline. Let's talk. And finally, I just, I snapped. And I said, you need to stop. We'll do this later.
Speaker 2 00:31:50 You know, I know it wasn't allowed. I, you can't do that. Karen, as a leader anyway, or as a woman, I don't know, but I wasn't supposed to do it, but I, I purposely might, my team was like, we were so glad you did that. Yeah, it was. So
Speaker 1 00:32:07 You can start there. You
Speaker 2 00:32:08 Know, I didn't, it ended there, but, but I took the opportunity to say to my team, I owe you an apology. It was inappropriate. And I'm not sure what the right thing would have been to do. I'm going to think more about that, but I'm not happy with the behavior I displayed in front of you and I don't want you to think it's okay. So I want to apologize to you. And the other individual apologized to me, he realized, but anyway, I think that's, I think being so productive and we talked through it and I, and you know, once again, you ran into my Achilles heel for my fifties. I did everything I could and I didn't know how else to gracefully. And I said, what could I have done? What would have stopped you? Right. And he didn't know because he was in his. Right.
Speaker 1 00:32:54 Right. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:32:56 So I think if you're open and honest with people
Speaker 1 00:32:58 Around
Speaker 2 00:33:01 Exactly. Pulling on them, so right. Get that part of getting on the same page. And I don't proactively say, oh, how's your boss. You're going to realize I'm pretty direct and all of these areas. But
Speaker 2 00:33:16 Yeah. But I really talked to them about the two things I think are really important for you to know in a workplace one, what are the things you're working on? Don't give yourself 10, choose one and master it on that level. Not on the, I need you to write well write level. And then, and then the other one is know your, know your things, whole other conversation, but know what four things you need to be happy at work so that, you know, when it's time to go or when it's time to look for a new opportunity. And I just try to be conscious of the fact that it's not always going to be the right job. It's not always going to be the right person. And if I'm open to hearing things that are uncomfortable, I can keep people on the same page.
Speaker 1 00:33:59 So you're talking about each person knowing what matters to them in the job for two things, three things, four things, what matters to me in the job. So there, there should be some self-reflection. Am I getting them? Am I doing things to achieve them? You're helping them size up their satisfaction with the job. But when it comes down to that, doesn't it,
Speaker 2 00:34:20 It really does because I think you're not on the same page. If you're giving direction and you're asking things of people and you're having meetings and you have no idea. If people are happy with being fulfilled, right. You're not on the same page. Right. And I can't be responsible for everybody's happiness at work. But I do think you getting them on the same page with themselves.
Speaker 1 00:34:42 Well, you have taken responsibility for having the conversation.
Speaker 2 00:34:46 Absolutely. And that, to me, as a leader, I have a budget and I'm responsible for a number, but I am responsible to grow everybody on my team. Some people are good. They want to be in the same job. They're going to be happy to do a great job. That's great. Most are not. So I take that very personally. It is my job to grow you, to understand where you are, show you the path to get there and get you there. Otherwise, why am I in this role? It doesn't make sense.
Speaker 1 00:35:14 So your definition of getting on the same page includes connecting with them in a more personal way. As it pertains to professional growth, you're not talking about their, you know, their relationship issues that their parents are or a spouse, but you want a whole person in the job.
Speaker 2 00:35:31 Absolutely.
Speaker 2 00:35:32 Absolutely. I'm sorry. I, it, I never thought of it that way, but that's such an important concept. I do. Because if you aren't introspective at work, you aren't going to be on the same page with others. If you don't think about how, what you do impacts other people, if you don't think about, is this making me happy? You're not going to be productive. So I do believe if you're not on the same page with yourself, and you said it like, yeah, we're not talking about your marital issues and I'm not talking about the argument you got into with your partner or whatever your kids, if you need to talk, I'll do that.
Speaker 1 00:36:10 Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:36:11 Yeah. But, but it's my job to make sure that you're fulfilled here because you are spending eight to 10 hours a day away from your family and your children, and you need to feel fulfilled to be productive. And you need to think about how there's like my journey, right? It's not just taking things personally in my personal life, I'm doing it at work. So yeah, I think,
Speaker 1 00:36:34 And you know that everybody has a journey like that, of their own. You're not trying to be a therapist, but you, but people bring that to work. That's what we started off. Bring it to work. And so your job is to, I think just by the virtue of the fact that you're willing to have those conversations with people, if they don't want to have that with you, that's okay. But you're giving them the opportunity to have that conversation in that space. You can make something happen together
Speaker 2 00:37:03 And
Speaker 1 00:37:03 You know, good.
Speaker 2 00:37:04 Yeah. I'm sorry. You said something important, which was, they don't have to, some people want to talk. Some people don't, I'll always offer, Hey, these are some things I do find your four things. Figure out what you're working on. Right? It's not going to be therapy. We're not going to talk about it every time. But if you can, you recommend a book. And then I go to HR and I say, Hey, I've got a person working on communications. Can you recommend something? Right. I'll go to HR. That's they're professionals. They're helping us with that kind of development. So,
Speaker 1 00:37:33 Well, look, you don't care. I mean, you, you would, you like to see people do what you've done. You let people do it. We're talking about because if it makes them more fulfilled in their job, they perform better. They make a better team member.
Speaker 1 00:37:49 You get maybe stronger teams this way. If they don't want to do that, you don't care. As long as they keep performing. Now it comes back to it. My job, as a manager, I have some responsibilities. We've got to perform. We've got to deliver, we've got numbers, we've got whatever measures. And if someone's personal stuff is not impacting work and they don't want rock on. If personal stuff is impacting work, Hey, look, I don't want to get in your personal business, but you're bringing, you know, your behavior at work. Has this, people have told you your behavior at work affects. Okay. So that's fair grounds.
Speaker 2 00:38:25 Yeah. And you don't, it doesn't, it can't be personal. Right? Legally it can't. But if you come to me for mentorship, that's what we talk about. What are the four things I need to know? What drives you. Even as your boss, I need to know what drives you. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:38:38 But you know, even if I didn't come to you for mentorship, if I was working for you and you came to me and said, let's talk, and then we sat down and you said, you know, in the past few meetings, do you realize you're sitting there rolling your eyes?
Speaker 5 00:38:52 Do you realize?
Speaker 1 00:38:53 And, and because you're going to say to me, people see it, you're impacting the conversation. You're impacting a speaker, you're impacting some others. W w what's going on. If I don't want to tell you, you can't make me, but you're making me aware that my behavior is affecting the team. That's where your responsibility comes in. And if I stop behaving that way, cool. If I want to work with you and say, look, here's what I'm struggling with. You'll do that. If not, you expect me to take care of my business and stop impacting the team.
Speaker 2 00:39:24 Yeah. And absolutely. And there's, yeah, there's no a hundred percent success rate for anyone. I had, I had someone at a previous role whose personal life was impacting his professional life. And you know, all I could say was, I can tell something's going on. Right? You can talk about it or you don't have to, this is what I'm seeing. We need to fix this. So how we fix it is up to you. We can get you help. You know, you have all the resources, people care about you. So, and the person chose not to do that. And I've seen people still pull it back together. This person didn't imploded on the job and that, you know, that's okay. You just have to hope that they come to resolution on their own.
Speaker 1 00:40:07 Exactly. And you may, you said something that reminded me of Kevin Coleman, mental health center, it's called something different now. But that's what it was called when we were working. As I said, with severely, mentally disabled adults. And we made log entries in a, in a formal book, every shift, anytime we interacted with any client, we made a log entry about our interaction. And we were taught to be descriptive in our, in our entries and not evaluative. And that meant something very specific medically and legally, I could not say Karen hallucinating. It was not, I'm not a psychiatrist. That's not my job to say that I had to say, I was talking to Karen and she's standing in front of me. Her eyes were darting back and forth around me, looking at things. Her mouth was muttering, not in the conversation where I had to describe what I saw, appearance,
Speaker 1 00:40:57 Behavior and communication. We taught, we were low. The ABC's of logging. It was great because all my life. And then later on, I went to graduate school for conflict resolution, and I did some conflict resolution work. And in an intermediary role, I was able to say things descriptively that people were, could see more easily. Whereas if I had said something that sounded more evaluative or judgmental, I caused a reaction in them just by my words. Even if I was onto something, I caused them. It's the difference between saying, you know, I saw your wrinkle up your face or frown or roll your eyes. You describe a behavior. People don't really deny it. They might say, Ooh, did I really didn't mean to show that? But it's different than if you say you're being an ass Or, you know, you were so disrespectful of, of, of so-and-so when she was speaking. I mean, because then that's an evaluation and they could, that's an invite to statement. They could get defensive. I'm not being disrespectful. Now you're gone. You're not, you missed the point. But if you described the behavior, it's a much better starting place for a conversation.
Speaker 2 00:42:08 I'm writing this down because I've, I've done that before
Speaker 1 00:42:10 The ABCs, appearance, behavior and communication. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:42:15 I've done that where I've said you're being disrespectful. And then I don't understand how so that I need to practice that. That's right.
Speaker 1 00:42:22 You know, and you know what, for me, Karen, it's in that space of the Viktor Frankl quote to me, because in that space, I can describe some behavior. I have a more productive conversation than if I sound like I've judged the behavior. That's often not a very productive conversation. Let's talk about what we've been talking about with gender.
Speaker 2 00:42:45 Sure. With a hot topic,
Speaker 1 00:42:48 It is a hot topic. We've talked about this a little bit. Is there something special, meaning particular, something particular or unique about the things we've been discussing with regard to getting people on the same page, your behavior, your communication that has to do with you being a woman, doing those things that might not be the same for me doing those things. We can maybe do the same behavior. Is there something different going on because of gender?
Speaker 2 00:43:15 One of my colleagues, he and I had this conversation this week because I asked the person I had to apologize to. I said, do you think I offended him? Because I'm a woman because I've heard you give worse, you know, more harsh, constructive feedback to people and nobody stops and has an issue with it.
Speaker 1 00:43:38 Interesting.
Speaker 2 00:43:39 And he's super honest with me. He said, pants say, I agree with you. Don't think it has anything to do with you being a woman, but I want it. I hear what you're saying. And I understand you're being sensitive, which is right. What HR tells you to do. But I respect this guy. So I do think there is an implicit gender bias. I I've seen it in myself. If, if I have women who work for me, who, and this is probably feminists all over the world are gonna hate me for saying this. But I felt, I always had this feeling that at work, I need to be a person, not a woman, Ugh, feminists are rolling over in their graves because I think a lot of what I bring to the table as a woman is important. But I also think I bring a lot to the table because of many other things, my upbringing, my religious upbringing, all of that.
Speaker 2 00:44:33 There are things I do believe women and men are different. We're silly if, if, if we think we're not, I do think there are things that I have to be in control of my emotions. Not all women, some women are more emotional creatures. I do. I don't cry at work. I'm not crying at work. They're not going to make me cry at work. I cry, you know, easily in my personal life. So I'm not doing the we're the same. We're not the same. I do think in some situations and I don't, I do think it's not always seen or understood it's happening, but yes, I do think if I get angry, if I raise my voice, if I express displeasure,
Speaker 1 00:45:16 You were sharp with someone.
Speaker 2 00:45:18 Absolutely. I hear men do that on calls all the time that they don't apologize. So I do think a, I should be held to a higher standard because of the position I'm in. I shouldn't lose my temper. I shouldn't do these things to be respected as a leader, but I do also feel that as a woman, there's a whole other level and a female colleague called me last night. There's an issue that she's dealing with. Former colleague she's on another company, but she was getting my advice. And she said, one of my other female colleagues went to our boss and express displeasure. And I want to do it now too. But I'm afraid it's going to be a look at all the sensitive women on the team.
Speaker 2 00:46:02 So she reached out to a male colleague and said, how are you feeling? And lo and behold, he felt the same way. And she said, I need you to communicate that, right. Because if I'm the next person to communicate it, it's looking at the women on the team, all being sensitive. If you do it will. I think we can get further. So gosh, I think to say it, I, you know, what's funny when the whole me too movement started, I was like, I don't know. I don't understand that. And then lo and behold, I remembered something that happened 20 years ago, or I was touched in appropriately in a room in front of other people. And I was like, oh, that's what they're talking about. So now I understand. So 20 years later, things have changed a lot and they haven't for some people for me, I do feel like I work in a safe environment where no one's going to grab me in front of other people again. But I do think I have to be careful. I think I'm extra careful about how I communicate and what I communicate about because you are, there are adjectives that are still used to describe strong women, right? A strong man is a good leader. A strong woman is, you know, an inappropriate adjective. So I think it's hard.
Speaker 1 00:47:15 You could be, someone could have an opinion of you because you're Jewish
Speaker 2 00:47:19 For sure. Which is amazing too, right.
Speaker 1 00:47:24 Views of us for different reasons. And gender could be one age, be one. Is there a difference? Are they, are they, are they the same kind of phenomenon? Just the dividing line? Is that the category? She's
Speaker 2 00:47:40 Yeah, absolutely. And an ad I'm still privileged and I'm a woman of color. Right. So I think in general, I feel very privileged. I do. I, I'm very lucky. I've had a lot of different opportunities in my life and, and yes, there are other categories and everyone right now is so focused on implicit bias training. Right. We go through it. Yeah. I find, I find myself almost doing the opposite. When I interview people, I want to hire a minority. Like, am I being fair in my hiring someone who is the right person? Oh my gosh, do I have implicit bias? How do I fight it? So, yeah. I don't think it's special, but I do think it's still happened. I don't think. Um, yeah.
Speaker 1 00:48:23 Well, so how far do you reflect? How far do you question yourself? You could, you know, we, we could question ourselves into a place we can't get out of. If you get ourselves stuck, how much do you challenge yourself? Question yourself, um, reflect on these things, process, these things. Is there, how much do you process these things to decide what to do in a situation when you have to ask yourself, am I perceived some way because of my title or my role because of my gender, because of my religion, because they happened to know I have an acting background or a drama background, right. We could go on and on with this and drive ourselves nuts. But it seems like some of it might be useful to ask. So where's the line.
Speaker 2 00:49:06 That's a good question. And I do I get in rat holes with that, right. You know, is it really because of this? Isn't it. One of the unique things about the job I have is, you know, we record a lot of our meetings. I'm sure everybody does. Right. People can't be there. So you're reporting them
Speaker 1 00:49:23 Around, around the world. Don't you?
Speaker 2 00:49:26 Um, that I interact with my team is Canada, Latin American us, but my colleagues are definitely I'm on meetings, global meetings. Okay. So boy, that's a whole other fascinating
Speaker 1 00:49:39 Conversation
Speaker 2 00:49:40 Is communicating with people in different cultures. Yeah. That's so I'm looking at my bookshelf cause I have a great book about that. So I've listened to before, right? Like how do I sound, how do I sound to other people? And could I do things differently? How is it coming across? I have asked people, you know, I need you to be honest. Was I out of line? Yeah. And one of my mentors, the one call I was talking about said, and listen to the recording so I could give you feedback. And I, you did everything you could, and then you did this. There had to have just been a better way. You had to do something. Right. So, and that's when I said is because I'm a woman. I don't like using that. Like, I don't want to use that as the excuse.
Speaker 1 00:50:25 You know, I know you wouldn't, but you want to know if it's F if it's part of something that's going on,
Speaker 2 00:50:31 I do look, it's, here's the thing. I'm not going to fix the world. If I could, there'd be no prejudice in the workplace or outside. Right. Like I put on a Cape and Tiara and the world would be like rainbows and uniforms, but I don't have that, unfortunately. So I do have to monitor myself. I do have to understand how I impact other people. I do have to say, regardless of whether it's because I'm a woman or because I was out of line, I have to fix that behavior if I want to be respected. Right. I mean, what choice do you have? The choice you have is to keep running through and being a bull in a China shop and giving away your power and people lose respect. I mean, power over yourself, right. Power over the people you work with or so, so I think, gosh, I hope that's not a cop out. I continue to talk. I can continue to make a change and, and, and try to get people around me to be aware of their own biases, but I can not fix them.
Speaker 1 00:51:26 And if somebody wants to look at you in a certain way, because of any marker, it's common markers, the color of your skin, your gender, your religion, your title, that can't be helped for you to think about how you act in situations and ask yourself against your own criteria. If that's the way you want to act.
Speaker 2 00:51:47 Absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:51:48 Or would you make some improvements? Some changes is the thing it's sort of your purview, right? That's, that's in your span of control.
Speaker 2 00:51:56 That's a really great way to put it. And I are people perceiving me the way I want to be perceived. When I walk out of the room, are people talking about me in a way that I feel good about myself is the conversation. Gosh, Karen has all this stuff together, but she just can't keep her temper. However, they perceive it, right. That's not what I want, so I can't fix them. But I, I, it is important to me to leave a good impression to impact people in a positive way. So I can think about how I'm doing that. You know, and, and I always say, you can put me in a suit, but I'm a goofball. People know that about me. I'm I can, I can be the most professional person in the room. I can get up on a stage and talk to 5,000 people in a suit or inability. I'm silly. And I want to have fun. And that's one of my four things, right? So people know that about me and that my, I think most people know my intentions are good, but yeah, but it's my job to make sure the footprint I leave as is what I want it to be.
Speaker 1 00:52:59 Well, you know, somebody could look at, that's a great point. And apart from other markers that are, you know, gender age, some are socioeconomic. Someone could look at your silly behavior and think it's unprofessional.
Speaker 2 00:53:12 Absolutely, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:53:14 But you know, we've got to be ourselves. We can't be, we can't perform in a job the way it wouldn't be possible. It wouldn't be advisable to attempt to perform in your job the way five or 10 or 50 other people think you should. That's maddening. So there's a line somewhere in there, which I don't know. You know, there's probably, you were talking about this for half an hour or so. Probably people who study these kinds of things, and maybe haven't struggled to find the answers. What is that line? I mean, I guess if you're having intention, if you want to be, if you have an idea what it means for you to be a leader. So the, so I think the starting places where we've talked about awareness of oneself, so there's not a lot that is lost on Karen, about Karen you're aware of things.
Speaker 1 00:54:01 Does it mean you act every way, ideally the way you'd like to, but you're aware of things. So you can reflect. If you have an intention of handling a certain situation, a certain way, you can evaluate yourself against that. If there's something about there could be something about being a woman, this facilitates that that's positive in that there's could be something about being a woman that works against you. In that situation. You said a rabbi was a sermon by a rabbi, was something that gave you an epiphany in your life that changed your life. Well, then there's something about being Jewish that benefits you, you don't bring it to work as a Jewish thing, but it came from your background. You bring it to work as a Karen thing, but it came from your background. So this is, this is, this is sort of slippery things and it might not even be the right question to ask.
Speaker 1 00:54:54 Is there something about being filling the blank that helps or hurts? If I suppose the answer is always yes to both. Maybe it just comes back to, you have an intention of how you, how you want to be in a situation, how you want to handle a situation, because let's not forget that situation is a means to an end, how we handle that situation has something to do with what happens with the team or the client or the customer or whatever. It's a means to an end. So you have, you're being intentional about something as a means to an end. Then you can evaluate yourself on that, but how are perceived by others? I think it's something good to be aware of. We can't control. We couldn't spend too much time. I always got, when I was learning to do the feedback thing with my supervisor as a young professional, she said things I agreed with.
Speaker 1 00:55:40 She said things I didn't agree with. So I learned early in my, in my life to hear the feedback and ask myself, do I think that's right. I didn't want to reject something for being defensive. That's egotistical. But if she said something that I thought, no, that's not how I saw it. That's not what I was thinking or feeling I could dismiss that I wasn't going to lose. I wasn't going to get spun up over it. Okay. Take feedback was like, oh wow, good observation. Great idea. I can do something with that. But sometimes you get feedback. You have to go your process honestly, and go, I don't think so. And just leave it. I'll say this. After talking to you in one of our prep calls as a male executive, I called female women, female, female staff. Other sometimes that were, uh, you know, report direct reports to me. Sometimes they were, they were direct reports to others who reported to me. I called some and said, I have a question for you. Have I, did I ever act in a way that was sexist to you? Because I didn't, I wouldn't have meant it, but I could have come across that way. They all said no, but one said no, but
Speaker 1 00:56:56 No, but something happened one time that I wondered if it was because I'm a woman of color and it was more the color part than the woman part. That's what I said. That's exactly what
Speaker 2 00:57:08 I said.
Speaker 1 00:57:09 Wow. And she described a situation to me, which I didn't recall, but nothing came to mind and she said it might've been me or it might've been my imagination, but it made me wonder if being black had something to do with it hurt the takeaway for her was did she have to work harder to be noticed, to be recognized, to be sort of the classic, you know, at the seat at the table? The takeaway for me was I couldn't go back and reconstruct it. But I said to her at the time, well, I am sorry that even if it didn't, I didn't, I don't think that way. I don't think I'm not going to do something because that staff person's a woman or that's that person's black or that staff person, whereas a yamaka. I don't think that way now I'm processing information. That way it doesn't factor into my decision making.
Speaker 1 00:57:59 And if I've got biases that I can't see, I ought to be able to see them. They shouldn't be a pattern. I could recognize the pattern and go, Hey dude, you're telling yourself about, you're telling yourself this, but you're behaving this way. I've got to square this up. So I apologized to her instead. I didn't mean that. And I'm sorry, it sounded, it looked, it looked that way. And I said, I wish I had, she had asked to participate in something. I said, I wish I'd taken you up on your offer. I regret that. I didn't take you up on your offer. She was someone I respected as a consultant and she was young and try to learn. And I said, I'm sorry, I didn't take you up on your offer. And she's considering doing an episode with me, so that'd be fantastic. But I had to, I had to do that after we had the conversation to think, to say, how am I perceived? Even if I don't mean to be too, to represent myself that way. I think that's a good question to ask.
Speaker 2 00:58:51 I do too. And I think her, I love that. She was that honest.
Speaker 2 00:58:56 I, you know, and I do the same thing. She probably does, which that's my first question. It's prevalent right now. It's top of mine. Isn't because I'm a woman. And then I stop and go. Or was I just a jerk? Right. Like, and I think we, we have to do that because sometimes it is going to be implicit bias. Sometimes it's going to be, because I'm a woman because people are cumin and even good people who don't wake up and kick the dog show implicit bias. Right. So I think it's good to ask. And then I think it's good to go. Okay.
Speaker 1 00:59:29 Maybe not because
Speaker 2 00:59:30 I'm a woman. Maybe I was just a jerk. Yeah, yeah. Yeah. So I think,
Speaker 1 00:59:34 Or if it was because you're a woman, if it was because you were a woman, there might be something you can do about it. There might not. I mean, this is where we get to in our own processing, what do we, what do we do with the information? If I could do something with it, I will, if I can't, I got to carry on.
Speaker 2 00:59:49 And it's interesting. It's not what you said, the ABC appearance behavior communication. But what I have learned to do, instead of saying you send that because I'm a woman, right. To be able to say, I'm curious if, if there's anything that I did that impacted that, I'm curious if you think I might be perceived differently because I'm a woman and if so, what can I do? Or I might be judged differently or whatever it is, right. It's not attacking it's, it's asking questions and not accusing or diagnosing your, you have a prejudice because I'm a woman. Gosh, boy, that anybody right. That gets your hackles up. No, I don't take that off.
Speaker 1 01:00:26 Right? Yeah. Very, very true. Well, we have covered, it's been a great conversation. We've covered a lot of issues and covered them in some depth and real honesty. I appreciate you sharing these kinds of
Speaker 2 01:00:37 Things.
Speaker 1 01:00:39 Is there anything that we haven't talked about you wanted to touch on or you wanted to go over?
Speaker 2 01:00:43 Nice. That's a great question. I think I honestly, I think it's, no, I think this is going pro. I'm probably gonna call you back and say, yes,
Speaker 1 01:00:52 There's this thing
Speaker 2 01:00:52 You said, because I've been taking notes. I just am a huge believer that gosh, being self-aware makes, makes your life richer. It makes the world, you live in a richer enhances, not just your personal life, but your professional life. And I totally respect some people have no interest and their lives are full and fascinating. And you can't force it for me personally, this journey of self-awareness of being on the same page with myself and others and trying to facilitate that has, has made my life just like amazingly rich.
Speaker 1 01:01:25 I'm glad to hear that. And I would say as a friend, I'm glad to hear that. And I would say, I'm going to say something. I can't back up with data, but I'll bet. If we talked to a hundred people and asked a hundred people, did you have a great leader in your life? And they, and everybody had one. I bet you, that person was more in touch with themselves than not. I bet you, those people had done the kind of journey we've talked about in PR and PR and continue even to the later their career, they continue processing information like we're talking about, right? So you're just, you're staying aware of things.
Speaker 2 01:02:03 I was just gonna say, there's a young man who I respect so much. He, uh, in a prior job, I hired him and he, he just, he's brilliant. He just helped me build and do great things. And I liked him and we, we didn't start out great, but I liked him and I hired, but he's Brazilian. And he was living in Ireland. He's now in Portugal. I just, I love his life. We could not communicate. I would be like, You're so insulin on the calls like you see, I wasn't ABC. And I was accusing like, I don't know how to do this. And he would be like, you talk in circles. And um, and then I walked to my bookshelf. It wasn't me. It was him because he's so wise, there's my book. He goes, um, got this book, the culture map. And it's all about how people communicate in different regions and how some are high context and low context. And he read it. And you said, would you read this book? And he made me a better leader. We read the book, we
Speaker 1 01:03:07 Learn how to
Speaker 2 01:03:07 Communicate. And she's since moved on and I moved on, but we just talked last week. And it meant more to me than anything. But it was so important to say, I'm not happy at work. I'm looking for a lender. Like you, I've never had a leader like that. And I said, well, then you, you become that leader. Right? You become that leader. And then you interview the next person you work for and you don't have to work for someone, you know, you're so smart and you have so much going on for you. You can choose your next boss, but that, that ability to have an impact meant so much. Okay.
Speaker 1 01:03:42 Absolutely. He meant, it meant a lot to him that you read the book.
Speaker 2 01:03:46 Oh my gosh. It changed my life. Of course.
Speaker 1 01:03:49 But he, it meant a lot. He respected you for say, okay, I'll, I'll look at it and I'll talk, I'll talk to you. But that's, that's, that's courageous. I applaud you for that.
Speaker 2 01:03:58 Oh, it was him. It was him courageous to go to your boss and say, well, you do this. Right. And he made me a better person. When you mentor someone who makes you a better person. Right. That's
Speaker 1 01:04:07 Well, and that's something I think I also hear, geez, I wonder what the research is on that. That's a fascinating question. I hear that a lot from people I respect as leaders that they, that, that people they've worked with often subordinates made them better people.
Speaker 2 01:04:22 Absolutely. How lucky is that? That's just a bonus.
Speaker 1 01:04:27 Very much so. Yeah. I know that that's icing on the cake, but it also says that that's a person who's open to continually learning about themselves or learning about situations or learning about. Cause if you're, if you, I think if you think, if you're static, I think if you think you have achieved or achieved attained a certain level of something performance, I knowledge, and you can just stay there. Like, you know, when you're playing cards and you, and you just hold, hold, pat, no, no musicians, athletes, people, actors always learning something about the craft, right? There's always something to learn. You never master a golf game. Even if you're the master, there's always something the game teaches you. There's always something to learn about what we're talking a leader, a team in a situation, how that leader gets people on the same page or doesn't. And I think Karen, I think it turned out to be a pretty, a fairly personal thing. There are best practices. There are HR rules and guidelines, but I think it turns out to be a very, it's just a human thing, personal I'm in a sense of human.
Speaker 2 01:05:36 Sure. Yeah. And you know what, it's scary. It is human and it's scary. And, and you have to be willing to look at the bad and the ugly in yourself and admit that it has impacts and every aspect of your life, they're not necessarily bad or ugly, but things you'd like to do differently. Yeah. I mean,
Speaker 1 01:05:55 However,
Speaker 2 01:05:57 Not everyone wants to do it and that's okay.
Speaker 1 01:05:59 Right, right. But like we said before, it might be a thing. Might've been things that worked for you at a time because they were needed at that time, But they don't work in situations today. So you've got, but this is the point you're updating yourself. Right. You're constantly updating yourself. I liked that. I get energy out of that.
Speaker 2 01:06:21 Yeah. For sure. For me, me too, you're talking about, and this is a whole other conversation, but you talk about the different things. We can be judged by gender, religion, race, you know, everything, right. How you drink your coffee. I always been self-conscious about, I don't want it to be that I'm stagnant. Right. I don't want to be judged by the fact that I'm not stagnant. I want to understand what's important. Yeah. And that's everything from age-ism. Right. I think about that. I know in the next five years or so, I'm going to be judged that way. So, um, I want to stay current. I want to still be relevant. And as a human being, I think it's, there's so much that goes into that.
Speaker 1 01:07:02 I admire the things you do and great conversation. Okay. Wow. It was a very energizing discussion. Thank you.
Speaker 2 01:07:10 I thought so, too. Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 1 01:07:12 I had fun and learned a lot. Got it.
Speaker 2 01:07:17 My pleasure.
Speaker 1 01:07:18 I am going to Have, I love it. I am going to look up the Victor Frankl.
Speaker 2 01:07:24 Oh my gosh. Do
Speaker 1 01:07:25 I, am I, am I love that line. Thank you for sharing it. Thank
Speaker 2 01:07:28 You. This was super fun. Let's do it again.
Speaker 1 01:07:30 I would love to.
Speaker 4 01:07:31 I would love to. Okay.
Speaker 2 01:07:33 Thanks.
Speaker 1 01:07:34 Thanks Garrett. And that's how we see it. My friends. I want to thank Karen for recording today's episode. You can find it at, I see what you mean.casto.com. Plus all the usual places, send questions and suggestions through the app. Subscribe and give me a five-star rating unless you can't. In which case, let me know why and join me next week. When we take another look at how to get on the same page and stay there, unless we shouldn't.