Changing Conversations To Change Behavior - Finding Ways To Connect, Part 2

July 05, 2022 00:32:49
Changing Conversations To Change Behavior - Finding Ways To Connect, Part 2
I See What You Mean
Changing Conversations To Change Behavior - Finding Ways To Connect, Part 2
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Show Notes

In Part 1 of our conversation, Terry Leberfinger and I talked about health and safety issues on the minds of employees, as the pandemic winds down, in a successful battery recycling operation where Terry's Executive Vice President for Human Resources. In this episode we discuss the business case for change as markets and environment, health and safety (EHS) regulations changed over 40 years. We dig into the psychology of change in the workplace, looking closely at how leadership works with employees - who've been on the job for decades - to not only solve problems but to unthink old ways of doing things and turn challenges into opportunities.

 

I always enjoy talking to Terry, and here are a few of my favorite ahh-ha! moments:

 

0:22 - Being on the same as a clear destination

2:00 - How an ambitious goal motivated uncommon innovation and performance

4:36 - Turning a compliance cost into a revenue stream

7:32 - Organizational change, Kubler-Ross, and the stages of grief

12:37 - Putting old know-how to use in new jobs and processes 

16:00 - Showing up Sundays to walk the floor and talk

21:06 - Managerial courage leading change

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Episode Transcript

Speaker 1 00:00:06 One of the fundamental things I like to talk about is what it means to be on the same page. We've talked about some fantastic examples of people getting on the same page and making a difference because of it. How do you define getting people on the same page and the work you do? Speaker 2 00:00:22 Uh, I think the definition for me is the destination. Where are we headed? What are we trying to accomplish? You know, I'm a, I'm a big reader and I'm a big reader of business books, Napoleon Hills think and grow rich is one of my all time favorites. I don't think they use the term laser focused, but to me it's being laser focused on the result and, and, and specifically pinpointing not, well, I wanna get better. I want to, I want, I want the position I want the company to do better. That's that's not vague pinpoint of result. Yeah. It's very vague. How, how do we specifically identify exactly what we want to accomplish? And that to me is, is the starting spot. Somebody to define exactly where we need to go. Yeah. Now the, the, the path in getting there can then be debated and discussed. Yeah. But it is very clear. We, we need somebody to, to show some managerial courage and say, we're gonna take this to a different destination than where we are today. Um, Speaker 1 00:01:31 And across the big organization, how people get there will vary Speaker 2 00:01:35 It. It will because people are naturally gonna look at it from their point of view. Yeah. And, and maybe those things that are important to them either because of their, them being rewarded a certain way. Right. Or it just flat out just being part of their day to day job responsibilities. Everybody's gonna look at it with, through a different lens. And so to me, it's, it's focusing all the lenses in one spot. Speaker 1 00:02:00 <laugh>, that's a laser. So what did you see in the psychology of people when they, from, from again, from the shop floor to men and women in the office analysts and secretary up to executive positions, what did you see when that vision was? The goal was clear. There was some measures that wasn't vague, that was specific like, like smart goals, right. Um, right. Specific, measurable, et cetera. Sometimes those are daunting and can make somebody kind of pull back and go, whoa, I can, I don't even, can we do it? Can I help with that? I don't even know. What did you see with the psych of it? Especially if, like you said before, there was a small win and then you get a little bit of a light bulb or a little daunting of, Hey, maybe this is possible. And then did you see an ambitious goal? Did you see an ambitious vision draw people in? Speaker 2 00:02:53 Yes. Well, I'm, I'm gonna use my current organization. This is a very successful recycling company. We recycle batteries and car batteries and industrial batteries. The first thing that it was was separate them into their three main components of lead bearing material, sulfuric acid, and plastic. The lead bearing material gets broken apart. It gets melted, it gets treated, it gets cleaned. We add the chemicals to it and take it to a specification that the customer's looking for. And we ship it back to them. That was the primary business. But then the offshoot became, well, how do, how do we recycle this plastic? Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And, and as a result became one of the world's largest recycling plastic recycling Speaker 1 00:03:44 Companies. No kidding. It was a, it was a, it was a throwaway before and now. Speaker 2 00:03:49 Yeah. I mean, they were putting in, in a landfill to the point where, you know, they're digging out the landfill and pulling the old plastic outta it. Cause that's, that's a pretty raw material <laugh>, you know, <laugh> Speaker 1 00:04:00 Wow. Speaker 2 00:04:01 And, and, and sulfuric acid can get neutralized to water and you can use that water in your, in your processes. Well, that, that mentality. Speaker 1 00:04:11 Yeah. That's a good word. Speaker 2 00:04:13 Yeah. Helped helped us a number of years ago because the ambient air levels for lead went from 1.5 units to 0.1, five units. So a 10 factor reduction Speaker 1 00:04:24 Around the plant. Speaker 2 00:04:26 Uh, yes. By the, the EPA, the decreed, um, these new ambient air levels. So basically we had to make a tenfold reduction. Speaker 1 00:04:35 Okay. Speaker 2 00:04:36 We knew we were not gonna be able to do that incrementally our, our existing bag houses and technology was not gonna allow that to happen. So the decision was made to build a scrubber, uh, basically a large scrubber that, you know, its sole purpose was to take, you know, so two out of the atmosphere and a lot of people just mixed it with different types of material and would consolidate that material and put it into a landfill. Are, are folks ask the question? How, how do we make it commercially viable? Speaker 1 00:05:10 Yeah. Speaker 2 00:05:12 So we mixed it with anhydro ammonia made ammonium sulfate that we now sell as fertilizer. And that helped us to offset the cost. So not only did we comply, mm-hmm <affirmative> with the EPA requirements, but we now have another revenue stream into the business that, and, and now we're saying, geez, what else can we do there? You know, what other waste material or waste products do we have that we could possibly do something similar with Speaker 1 00:05:41 Turn to scrubber into an investment. Speaker 2 00:05:44 Exactly. And, and that investment may never fully pay back, but you had to put it in place. Anyway, anyway, that was our requirement. That was our proverbial ticket to play. We had to go ahead and do that, but to think, to have the foresight to say, well, I wanna offset some of those costs and I wanna be able to sell that product and, and continue my reputation as a recycler. That, yeah, that takes some interesting thought. Speaker 1 00:06:12 Interesting. Speaker 2 00:06:13 Now I bring this up because this is a 50 plus year old company that has been very successful. And, and to its point sometimes a victim of its own success, because nothing has changed in 45 years in that company. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:06:29 No process has changed. No equipment changes, nothing like that because we've been very successful the way we do it. Yeah. Great. Now all of a sudden, you know, we're asking people to change technology and, and we've got some new investments that we're gonna be making into the company. The, the owners are very gracious about investing back into the organization and, and basically we're, we're investing for the next 15 to 20 years and, and, and making technology changes and so forth a lot more automation, less reliance on people. Yeah. So when you bring people into a room and you say, we're going to make this change, the first response is a little bit of excitement, but then it's like, oh, what does this mean for me? Right. What does this mean for my job? Am I gonna have to start doing my job differently? Right. Am I gonna have to start using different technology, different software, uh, and immediately start to paint the worst case scenario, picture number Speaker 1 00:07:30 Mind. True. Common. That's common. True. Speaker 2 00:07:32 Very much. So. So part, part of our job, I think, is senior leadership then is let them get through that process. Let them, it's almost like a grieving process. <laugh>, there's, there's shock. Uh, there's Speaker 1 00:07:48 The six stages. There is Speaker 2 00:07:49 Anger. You <laugh> all Speaker 1 00:07:52 Denial. Speaker 2 00:07:53 They come to acceptance. Exactly. Uh, but, but once they reach that point of acceptance, you know, I always feel part of my job is then kind, kind of coming around behind, and just sitting down with individuals or even departments or groups of individuals and saying, okay, now let's talk about your specific situation. Let's talk about what needs to change. Let's get very specific. Let's get very laser focused. We're not talking wholesale change. We, we are talking, you know, yeah. A and B or, or X and Y uh, or X, Y, and Z. Now let's start putting the plans in place. What needs to happen here. Right. And you start engaging them in the process. And, and that's when you start to see that, that aha moment or, you know, okay, I, I can get on board with this. This isn't as bad as I thought it Speaker 1 00:08:44 Was gonna be. Well, that let's go. Let me ask you, you let's go back to something you mentioned before, and I'll ask you now, you mentioned motivation. So when you're in that conversation with somebody after they've gone through the pro the Kubler Ross six stages, and they're ready to have a conversation, what did you see? Any, anybody could have any particular motivation, but categorically, what few motivations did you see that you were able to align with and align them with for the business objectives? Get on the same page, Speaker 2 00:09:12 You know? Yeah, absolutely. I, I think it starts with the fundamental understanding that we are all human beings and we are all selfish. And so we are all asking, what does this mean to me? So one of my first questions is what are you afraid of? Mm-hmm <affirmative> what personal fears do you have? Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and let's get those on the table. Some people are, are, are job scared in terms of, well, does that mean my position is going away? Sure. They're they're thinking about their families. Sure. They're thinking about their livelihoods. To me, that's always seems to be the number one. Speaker 1 00:09:46 They basic level of a Maslow's hierarchy. Right? It's it's exactly. Could it hit me there? Speaker 2 00:09:53 Yes. So those fundamentals once, once you get that out of the way and they realize, oh, I'm gonna have a job. Okay. Now, step number two, how is my job gonna change? Are the expectations gonna be different? Am I going to be able to change with it? Mm-hmm <affirmative> that's when you can really start having meaningful conversations of individual change, and whether it's personal or professional change that they need to make, do, do they need to go back to school? Do they need to learn software? Do they need to learn a new system of managing? Yes. It's going to be different from what you've done before, but here's specifically how, and, and now is my favorite part of my job is <laugh>. I, I think you could do this. Yeah. And let me, let me, let me, let me motivate you a little bit with how we're gonna do it, or some ideas that we're gonna do, and they will take that and run with it. And well, let me ask, they take full ownership Speaker 1 00:10:50 On that point. I don't know the business, your business at all, or your business of HR and health and safety risk management or the company's business, but I'm gonna bet things. I don't want to lose that. Even a, guy's been doing something one way for 45 years, and you're having a conversation where things are gonna change and there will be some new technologies or new processes or new something there's value in what he knows, or she value in what they know that they can apply to. What is it coming? So it isn't as if there real, we really don't need people to repair buggies anymore. It, it's not like that's gone, you've got knowledge. And that, that you can apply to what we're gonna do next. That has value. Now that's gotta make somebody feel better and motivated too, but I'm asking you to tell me if that's not right or tell me if it, if, if that's you see that happen. Speaker 2 00:11:44 I, I think it varies. Okay. I, I, I happen to be in a part of the country where the unemployment is very low and, and people normally go to one company and they stay there for 25, 30, 35. Now I've got, I've got 50 year employees. Oh, wow. Okay. In my company at, at this point in time, they are vested. They don't want to change. They don't want to have to go anywhere else and start all over where, where you can go to other parts of the country and, and more urban settings, larger cities where it's easy to not only maybe change jobs, but heck you could change careers, right? If you, if you wanted to. Right. So I, I think it's really a factor of, of where you are and what's available around you. So that, that environmental impact to me is, is really part and parcel to these conversations. Speaker 1 00:12:37 But if you're sitting with me, Terry, you're sitting with me and I've been doing something for 30 years and I know it's gonna change and I don't wanna walk away from it, but I don't know how it's gonna go. I don't know if I'm up for it. And you're being honest with me. Look, we might need to get you some training. We might, but isn't, isn't it not also, not the case that you could say to me, it isn't like I wanna wipe the hard drive in your head clean and nothing you've ever done matters anymore. What you ha what you know about the company, what you know about processes, what you know about the shift, what you know about people, what, you know, continues on maybe in a different configuration with new things, but you're telling me don't despair. What, you've the, the, the knowledge and the experience you've built for three decades working here still has value. Speaker 2 00:13:18 Yes, absolutely. And if people have spent that much time with you, they know things, they know things that you don't, maybe they wouldn't give them credit for knowing, because you just can't be around something for that long and not absorb, you know, some of the, the traits and those kinds of things. So, yeah, there's absolute. And we try to protect that knowledge wherever we can. Um, I was not a big believer in it before, but when I first went through transformation with, with the company that I referenced earlier, there was a whole communication that was tied back to basically tribalism mm-hmm <affirmative> and tribes would tell stories. And those storytellers were responsible for passing the knowledge down from generation to generation. I wasn't much of a believer in that 20 years ago, but today, wow. I'm collecting stories. I'm passing stories along. I'm making sure somehow those, those stories get passed along because it's important to the culture and those people who have been there 20, 25, 30, 50 years, they're the source mm-hmm <affirmative> of all of that. Speaker 1 00:14:32 They're the elders, all Speaker 2 00:14:33 Of that knowledge, all of that story. Yes. They've, they've become the elders in the tribe. Yeah. And there's, there's something to, and that's why we celebrate them, you know, when they hit milestones. And that's why we celebrate them when they decide to leave our organization. It's, it's not just the time that they put in, but it's, it's the value that they've brought and, and the knowledge that they've allowed us to share down along the way. So I've, I've become a big fan of storytelling and, and, and capturing those types of stories and knowledge to pass along. Speaker 1 00:15:06 Well, I know from, from discussions we've had before, too, that, uh, I'm gonna pick up on something. You just said, people who know something really deeply, right. And, and, and there's a phrase, they develop an unconscious competence about it. It isn't something that they, it is it's in their DNA. At some point, don't have to think about, they just know they have information about operations that executives might never think to ask, but might have a bearing on margin. Might have a bearing on safety, might have a bearing on supply cha uh, timing of things, delivery of things might have a bearing on something. It it's just what these guys have done forever. So they know it. And if you're, if you're at a distance from it, or if you didn't come out of that place, you might not think to ask if you have the right conversation with those folks, it's almost like they say, well, why don't you just ask me <laugh> Speaker 2 00:16:00 E exactly. I I'll tell you something that I've started doing since last September, usually one or two Sundays a month. I'll, I'll go into the office early. And I will dress out in my finest work, blues, my respirator, my hard hat. And I'll just go walk this floor mm-hmm <affirmative>. And in each of the departments, and, you know, I'll stop in and say hello to people and just ask them how they're doing, what they're doing. You know, what's important to them. What are they working on? Those kinds of things. And, and part of my motivation are these stories and, and the knowledge, and, and, and I'll, I'll jot some notes or, or take some notes, but you know what I find blue it's, it's talking to them on their turf and they are in their comfort zone. Yeah. I'm out of mine. Yeah. Uh, if I think if I brought 'em into my office, or I brought 'em into a conference room, the conversations would not be different. Speaker 1 00:16:56 Yeah. You're Speaker 2 00:16:57 Right. Yeah. Or, or nor is free flowing. They are in theircom zone. And to your point, when you ask somebody about their job, they want to tell you, they want to brag on what they do. They're proud. Most people are proud of what they do. Speaker 1 00:17:11 Yeah. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:17:12 You just, you just gotta kind of be determined to dig in and be prepared to go out and meet them on, on their turf. Yeah. Speaker 1 00:17:21 Well, I know, I know that some of how you turned around safety practices on the shop floor some years ago was because you went down and talked to the guys and said, why aren't you wearing those goggles? Why aren't you wearing those gloves? And it wasn't that they didn't want to be safe. It was that, I mean, I recall you correct me if I forget MIS misremember, this, it was that maybe it slowed him down or maybe it actually impeded vision. So if it impeded vision, there's a perceptual thing. And maybe the guy saying to myself, I feel less safe. I know that they're protecting my eyes, but I feel less safe if I can't see at the periphery, or if something slowed 'em down and they're being compensated on per piece or per unit basis per some increment of time per hour per shift, there's a reward system in place to crank out units. And if it gets slowed down, they're always gonna say, I can keep my hands safe. I can keep my fingers safe. I can keep my fingers on. I wanna get the production. Right. That's that rationale that we tell ourselves. So you learn things by talking to them that then you inccorporated into, they sort of led some of the safety practices because they told you what would work and what wouldn't work. Speaker 2 00:18:31 Yeah, absolutely. I think that one tell telling somebody that they have to do something is only half of the, the ratio, the, the other half of that equation is they understand the why mm-hmm Speaker 1 00:18:46 <affirmative> Speaker 2 00:18:47 There are competing priorities in a, in a lot of manufacturing jobs that you just mentioned. Speaker 1 00:18:53 Yeah, yeah, yeah. You're right, Speaker 2 00:18:54 Right. Safe safety. I want you to work safe, but I also want you to get this X number of parts out the door. Yeah. And by the way, I'm gonna pay you per piece to do that. Right. Uh, oh, you know, I'm sorry. You're gonna have to, you're gonna have to get creative. Uh, if I've put these artificial governors in place, that's where the value of those conversations become. And that's where, especially by having, you know, a, a little bit of the ability to manage both the incentive. Yeah. But also the, the, the safety component and making sure that those become complimentary and not competing priorities. Speaker 1 00:19:30 Well, you showed that more safety was more, was more productive. Speaker 2 00:19:34 It, it was it a across the grand scheme, right. The safest way is always gonna be the best way. Because if we have an incident, we have an injury, we're gonna shut it down. We're gonna investigate it. You're not gonna make your numbers for that day or that week, or that month, because we are putting this pause mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, into place. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, uh, yeah. So they, they realize there's a, just a, a slower steadier pace is, is better than, you know, breakneck speed. Yeah. With, with no, no curbing, right? Yeah. No, no accountability to go along with it. Speaker 1 00:20:09 Well, Terry time always flies. When, when I talked to you, we covered a lot of things. Great conversation like we do. Was there anything else that you wanted to cover? Speaker 2 00:20:19 Well, for whatever reason, my, my new terminology of, of managerial courage mm-hmm <affirmative> is, is an area that I'm kind of focusing on a little bit, you know, management, having the Curtis, uh, the courage to throw out an audacious goal. Mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and not being afraid that it's gonna be laughed, you know, out of the board room, you know, and, and a couple people come, like, why not me? And why not this? And why can't we accomplish that? Mm-hmm <affirmative> so, you know, having the courage to bring those concepts up has, has kind of become a new, new focal point for me. But we, you know, we talked about commitment. We talked about communications, we talked about accountability. I talked a little bit about those small successes leading to larger successes. So, no, I feel like, uh, I feel like we've hit on a lot. Speaker 1 00:21:06 I did hear you mention the managerial courage a few times, and then now I just jotted down a couple things you said that I think are really important for changing conversations. What if or why not? Or, um, you didn't say this, but what I've heard you do, sometimes I, the way I think of some things I've heard you say is you were figuring out ways to, so there's always trade offs and things that we do, you were figuring out ways to help people achieve an upside, to change an upside to something while protecting against the downside, the downside might have been personal. Will I lose my job? The downside might have been, um, a misunderstanding they had about what it would do to productivity or what it would do to costs, right? So you were, you were given people a a, sometimes I thought, um, solid place to stand on that maybe they didn't think was so solid. Speaker 1 00:22:01 Well, they reached for that thing that, that the, maybe the boss said, let's try to accomplish this. Tell me how, and in the, in the conversation about how it seemed like there were a lot of road roadblocks or hurdles, or what would go wrong and, and you reframed it some sometimes to say, what if we think of it this way, is this reasonable? Would this work think of it like this? Um, remove an assumption here, test an assumption, remove it, remove the biases. We all have biases, our brains work that way, clear those up. So people are going okay. Now, if that's how we run that shift, or if that's how we run that equipment, or if that's how we, Hey, then somebody might say not to you, because maybe someone says to a foreman, Hey, can we change the way we're receiving some things? Can we change locations where we put some things, right? Then they get in, they get creative with problem solving. Yes. Because they're connecting the puzzle pieces or the dominoes means, and ends means, and ends means and ends. And they're figuring out if we do some, if we make some changes that nobody was thinking of, actually we could accomplish what we're being asked to accomplish. Speaker 2 00:23:09 Yeah. That, that to me, is those incremental changes, continuous improvement. Yeah. That you want that frontline. I, I, I personally want them to own that. Yeah. Right. I, I think that is the, that that should become part and parcel to the tactical applications that they're used to doing every single day and then leave the larger strategic mindset, you know, the, what factoring in competitive landscape, financial landscape. Right. Uh, political landscape, et cetera, all that. Yeah. And now, yeah. And now start to think about, okay, what, what's the art of the possible? Well, some people use term, you know, blue ocean. Yeah. Yeah. Approach. So that, that for me, that's, that's where I wanna spend a lot more of my time. And I've got a select group of, of folks, some of which are senior managers and some of which are middle managers. So when I've got these ideas, I will bring three or four people together. And we'll just sit normally every Friday morning at 9:00 AM. I will have the same group of people in my office. They've got their coffee, they got their biscuits. And we just sit and talk about what's Speaker 1 00:24:19 Possible. That's cool. Speaker 2 00:24:20 And, and to your point, people will always shoot down the concepts. Well, that's not possible why that's not possible, why that won't work. This won't work, but we start to peel those layers away. Right. And say, how are we going to make it work? Right. What needs to happen in order for it to be successful when you start thinking that way, you'd be surprised that nothing is Speaker 1 00:24:43 Impossible. It opens up. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:24:45 It, it really does because you, you just remove the excuses. I, to me, it's just excuses. It's just noise. If, if you have that laser focus, you have that determination that Napoleon hill talked about in think and grow rich. There are no excuses. There is no bridge back. It, it is only moving organization and moving it forward, Speaker 1 00:25:09 You know, under a different set of circumstances. Those might have been legitimate. That could be excuses today. Under, under circumstances, maybe a year ago, 10 years ago, there might have been a legitimate reason why the answer there might have been a valid reason why that was the, so if what you're hearing that today, and it's maybe time to challenge that. You've probably seen this happen. If, if someone says we can't because, and you're gonna say, well, what if sometimes management's gotta come in to remove some barriers, to make some changes that, that the guys on the shop floor could say, well, if, if, if you could change or schedules or the incentive a, a package, or if you could do something from your, on your side of this equation, I use that phrase before. I like that. Then that would enable us to do some things that we have thought we couldn't do. Speaker 2 00:26:02 Right. Speaker 1 00:26:03 And there's a, there's a, like a dance there between leadership and, and the guys that are doing the work to get it done. Speaker 2 00:26:08 Whereas somebody that I use as an example, and I'm certainly not bringing his name up to offend anybody, because I find him to be a very polarizing person. But, but, but if you look at what Elon Musk has done in terms of automotive and space travel, I'm just gonna limit to just those two things. You, yes, there was always talk for at least the last 20 or 30 years about electric vehicles. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but for somebody to commercialize it and, and basically make a successful business out of it took somebody to say, I'm not accepting the excuses. Yeah. I'm not accepting the rationale, the rational, we to look at this differently, right. To not just say, I'm going to let a rocket drop into the ocean, but instead I'm going to land it on a, a ship because I want to reuse that again, because it's, it's costly and, and inefficient to do it another way. And, and the only answer is this is how it's gonna work and I'm gonna fund it until we get to that point. That, that to me is somebody that is very committed to their cause. Speaker 1 00:27:17 Well, it's a good point. And we could end on that. And here's the thought you made me think, which is, I remember we both remember when we were kids, the early moon launches. Yes. And what those, what those men and women at NASA were trying to do was figure out how to get human beings out there and back safely. And if they dropped that, that, um, capsule in the water that they left things in space, they dropped the capsule in the water. Those were not the problems they were trying to solve at that time. <laugh> Speaker 2 00:27:47 Right. <laugh> Speaker 1 00:27:49 They were trying to get human beings on a candle out of outer space and back safely. And they did. Speaker 2 00:27:55 Yes. Speaker 1 00:27:56 So, and, Speaker 2 00:27:57 And I was gonna say, and, and think about there's, there's been plenty of movies now about the behind the scenes and, and what it really took and the, the mathematical calculations and it, right. But you always hit on one, one key word right. Safely. Speaker 1 00:28:14 Yeah, yeah. Right. Speaker 2 00:28:15 They had to, right. It wasn't a matter of just putting them up there and leaving 'em up there. They had to get up there, do what they need to do and get back safely. And so, yeah, there's, there's for, I, I just like to bring it full circle. That safety is never far, uh, from what we're really no, you're right. Hard to Speaker 1 00:28:31 Accomplish. But I like your point too, because now today, Elon Musk saying, okay, we got that part. We know how to do that. Now let's do more. Yes. Let's keep, let's reuse parts. Let's land on. Yeah. Speaker 2 00:28:42 Yeah. How do we, how do we keep pushing the envelope? How do we become more efficient in, in doing that and therefore make it less costly. And you know, if somebody's gonna commercialize space travel, there's no doubt in my mind, that's gonna be the Speaker 1 00:28:56 Guy to do it. Why not us? Right. I had a, I made a note to myself as we were talking, I would just mentioned this to you. You, along with managerial courage, I wonder if there's a complimentary concept. I think with managerial courage, you're thinking more senior, right? Speaker 2 00:29:12 Yeah. Or, or it could be, it could be lower level, Speaker 1 00:29:15 But that's what I was, what Speaker 2 00:29:16 I've seen. It's yeah. I've seen it mostly from senior because the senior management is the one that's going to probably take you in a different direction that you had not thought about. Speaker 1 00:29:25 Well, I know you've, I know that you have worked with so many men and women from the shop floor to the boardroom. It might be worth thinking about the courage that a team lead at that level needs to have, right? Like a managerial courage of a team lead to say, to bring something up, cuz there's a courage. It takes to do that. Cuz you've you, you, you might feel like you're at risk for something, but Hey Terry, or Hey, or Hey boss team. And I have been discussing this idea. I wanna, I want to brief you on it. Right. There's some courage it takes to do that. Speaker 2 00:29:57 Yes. You know that, um, we recently instituted training within industry and I think you and I had had this conversation before training within industry was, was developed back in world war II. And it was, as companies were going from, you know, making, um, milk chugs to making bullets or, or from making cars to making tanks, the government had a very prudent way that they wanted them to make those adjustments and make those changes. Mm-hmm <affirmative>. And so they identified, you know, certain methodologies and, and safety and communications and training were all a part of it. Part of it was then was also continuous improvement mm-hmm <affirmative> and, and that continuous improvement was in the form of suggestions and, and the old suggestion boxes <laugh> um, when, when we do that training, now we ask them at, at the end of it, based on all your learnings, we want you to make one suggestion for change and then vote on it amongst your team. And then we want a full blown presentation out Speaker 1 00:30:58 It. Wow. That's cool. Speaker 2 00:31:01 Lou, we, we have somewhere in the neighborhood of over 300 projects that we are, you know, in various stages of implementing and doing wow. That are all just continuous. Hey, put this store here. Instead of over here, it's gonna save me 25 steps. Yeah. Hey, you know, you'll put, put this, relocate this, uh, change this, uh, things to your point earlier on that nobody would've thought of. Yeah. Until you asked them. Yeah. And then at that point in time, they're all showing that courage. Speaker 1 00:31:32 That's Speaker 2 00:31:33 Cool. Um, to, to bring those suggestions up and to ask, you know, the company to fund their plan and fund their project. Speaker 1 00:31:41 Well, that, that shows commitment from the top and the bottom. That's awesome. Speaker 2 00:31:45 Yeah. It's it's, it's been fantastic. Speaker 1 00:31:48 Wow. Well, let's end on that note. That's a, I love that. That's the high note, man. I always enjoy our conversations. Thanks Terry. Speaker 2 00:31:54 Uh, Lou, thank you so much. I I've really enjoyed our conversation as well. And uh, man, just let me know. I'll be welcome to come back anytime. Speaker 1 00:32:01 I always enjoy talking to you and, and learn a lot. I made a lot of notes here. Things I could steal. Thank Speaker 2 00:32:06 You. I'm I'm glad that it was, uh, I'm glad it was beneficial for you. Uh, I, I, I hope you're able to commercialize it, so, but uh, thank you so much for having me and for even asking me I'm, I'm humbled by Speaker 1 00:32:19 Your ask. Thank you, sir. Thank you, my friend. I appreciate it. All right. Have a good one. Thank Speaker 2 00:32:22 You. Speaker 1 00:32:23 You too. Thanks Terry. Bye-bye and that's how we see it. My friends, I wanna thank Terry for recording today's episode. You can find it at, I see what you mean.casts.com. Plus all the usual places, send questions and suggestions through an app. Subscribe and give me a five star rating unless you can't. In which case, tell me why and join me next week. When we take another look at how to get on the same page and stay there, unless we shouldn't.

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