Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:08 Welcome to, I see what you mean a podcast about how people get on the same page or don't, or perhaps shouldn't today. My guest is Amy <inaudible>. Amy is the federal government consulting industry colleague. Who's been in the federal market for 43 years. She launched her own consulting practice in 1997 and has been running that ever since. Amy, welcome to the show.
Speaker 2 00:00:28 Thank you. It's a pleasure to be here.
Speaker 1 00:00:30 It's great to have you, and looking forward to our conversation, give us a short bio.
Speaker 2 00:00:36 Um, for the past 43 years, the us government has been my client, as well as the government contracting community. I spent the first 20 years of my career at, at and T and Lucent in various capacities. Um, one of which was serving in the communications workers of America, where I had a lot of getting people on the same page. And, uh, the rest of the career was in on the business side, technical marketing sales, general management, leaving there running about a $285 million P and L. I became the chief operating officer of a small eight, eight firm, uh, after that. And then I launched my company AMT to consulting in 1997 and have, uh, operated that ever since. And today my work is focused on understanding the needs and the missions of government agencies and understanding how the solutions and services that my clients offer can help the government meet and enhance their mission.
Speaker 1 00:01:50 Thank you. And I met you maybe, uh, 10 years or so ago, so I've known you in your independent consulting practice. And I think one of the things that I watched you do that I admire is this is kind of a matchmaking you do between government clients and your clients, meaning that you, when you said understanding the needs of there's a getting people on the same page that you do in that business sense for, for, for your clients to do business with federal clients. So how would you describe getting people on the same page, whether in your personal or professional life over these years, what's getting on the same page about,
Speaker 2 00:02:29 Well, first I'm glad you asked professional and personal, because I think that, you know, you are that same person. You bring the same qualities and traits and capabilities into your personal relationships and endeavors, as well as your professional ones in my work. I think first and foremost, you have to, as a consultant, truly understand and get yourself into the shoes, any, and all of the stakeholders you are going to engage with and bring together. So in terms of trying to best understand the needs and mission of the government, that involves being able to engage in meaningful conversations, those stakeholders. And I think another thing that's very important about being on the same page is always remember that what matters is the other person never going to be able to get on the same page, if at all, unless you are able to look at the world through the other person's eyes and truly try to set aside your own biases, which is very difficult.
Speaker 2 00:03:55 We are human beings. It is very difficult to set aside your own biases, but to remain open-minded to the greatest extent possible. And here really listen for those things that the other person is passionate about. So that on the other side, you're able to figure out how, what you do, what you offer as a solution or a service will resonate with the person to whom you're trying to sell it, the person that you're trying to work with, or the organizations that you're trying to work with in a way that is compelling, that matters to them. Because often clients an example, you set up a very high level or even MADEC level meeting between appliance and, um, uh, government agency. And very often the clients want to begin the meeting right away, just talking about how great and wonderful their products and their solutions are. Right?
Speaker 2 00:05:04 But government audience really doesn't care. They're interested in how can you help me solve my problems? Right? Do you understand what I need? Because their time is so valuable, right? And everyone's time is valuable and it's no different. If you're lobbying. I did some lobbying throughout my career, and it's no different. If you are lobbying a Senator or a congressperson, or you're talking to, um, a government agent or you're, you're trying to get a new client or trying to help a current client, you have to be able to be succinct. You have to understand their point of view and their needs. So that in speaking to them about what you want to convey one, you're doing it at a level that isn't going to make their eyes glaze over, right to you're getting to what they are passionate about. And you're helping them understand that you care, that you're hearing them you're listening and that you are truly seeking the best outcome that allows for a win, win scenario. And it doesn't
Speaker 1 00:06:21 Right. That's true. But let's come back to that. This is why I love you, because you said five brilliant things in those few minutes. I want to unpack a little bit, cause I happened. I agree with a lot of what you've said, but let's dig into it a little bit. You mentioned meaningful conversations, which I think are critical setting aside bias to here, which I think if you can't do that, you can't get to the other things that you mentioned. You, you said hearing what the other side is, um, is passionate about talking about what means something to them, to the person you're talking to that start with, with the bias. I have this little theory, that'd be interested in your, in your reaction that we're all only on our own pages, our own page, I call it, which is how we live day to day in your work, in any relationship we're on our own page and to get on the same page, we have to create that with someone and one essential step to doing that is to set aside your own biases, your own assumptions, your own conclusions, to things that you think so that you can listen so that you can hear them.
Speaker 1 00:07:28 And not just hear the words that they say, because their words could trigger thoughts in you that might or might not be exactly what they mean. And I'm sure if you hear them closely and carefully, and you ask more questions about words they've used and what it means to them, then you're starting to get to a meaningful conversation. Then you're starting to get what they're, what they care about, but you can't do it. You don't stop that voice in your head and listen. So what's your reaction to that? Or, or, or how do you help? How do you do that yourself? How do you help people do that?
Speaker 2 00:08:00 It's a great question. First of all, I truly hope that until the day I die, I continually try to do that aware of the fact that somebody else, what somebody else thinks, what their experiences have been, are equally important to those that make up my perception and my reality of the world. Right? And so I think first of all, I think that we are, societaly taught so many biases and this today, and for years has been a very small world. And so when you look at our culture as a nation, our educational system and how we live in our communities, those biases are deeply ingrained. And I feel that it is very important, especially for Americans, because I think we are a more insular nation and people, then a lot of other countries in the world. And we think every, you know, we're, we're USA centered all the time and the world is not. And therefore it is important to understand history. It's important to understand other cultures, other nations, I, um, on a personal level, I am an, uh, international interracial interfaith and multicultural family. And, uh, this husband who is number three, I've been married to for 38 years.
Speaker 1 00:10:04 Congratulations,
Speaker 2 00:10:05 Thank you. And, uh, while he is a naturalized us citizen and has been for 54 years or so 50 years, he is west Indian born until he was 20. So on a personal level, you live in when you've grown up in one culture, right? And then you in race, you learn to embrace another culture. You know, you fall in love and you think, oh, we're going to be wonderful. And then you learn so much about the differences. And so
Speaker 1 00:10:43 A little vignette of that, a little example of that, that stands out, that you've tell people nothing private, but that you've told the story before of how you saw something through his eyes that made you go, ah, hi, hi. I didn't see it that way.
Speaker 2 00:10:57 Yes. Two things that I thought at first of all, it was probably after being together about eight, nine years. Wow. Okay. And having thought we are such a well blended couple. Sure. I was in San Diego on business. And one of the admirals that I worked with and I, um, had gone out to lunch and it was in a location where there was an art gallery. And so after lunch we walked, we were during our conversation, we walked through and I saw a painting or a print in the gallery. And I was struck by the fact that after all these years, I finally realized, oh my gosh, my husband and I are not blended because he has become like me. And that was really what I had felt. And the picture was an island boy leaning on a Palm tree or whatever, walking out over the Hills to the sea. And my heart was just melting when I looked at it. And what hit me was I don't have deans culture, history background hanging on the walls in my home, uh,
Speaker 1 00:12:32 Fascinating.
Speaker 2 00:12:33 And it was at that point that I realized for all the thinking that, you know, I grew up peace, love, grateful, dead, right? So open to everything. And I am open. I learned from that as I purchased that picture and had it shipped home to my, it is hanging in our movie. That's what proves that you are able to understand that what is inside of the other person, what has made them, who they are, is something very important to embrace and to understand, to value and to give as much credence to, as everything that you value from your own. Wow.
Speaker 1 00:13:28 That's right. That's pretty cool story. Thank you for sharing that. I love the vision in my mind of the perspective of the painting. So a boy, the perspective of the, of the subject in the painting. So he's looking out to something, right? So you had a perspective, there's a perspective in the painting. You had a perspective shift maybe because of the perspective in the painting or it hit you. That represents something that's not in the house, so right. And so you brought it, you brought it into the house and I know you did. I know you brought it into your life more than just one painting, hanging on a wall because I, I know you enough to know that that was a serious aha moment for you.
Speaker 2 00:14:10 And another, another one, it's something that he and I laugh about all the time. We were watching a movie and it was about black, urban life. It might've been boys in the hood. I mean, a very powerful film. And I turned to him at the end of the movie and I just looked at him and I said, I'm so glad we're black. And then he hugged me and then both cracked up again. That was just one of those things where you realize we have gotten on the same page. And yet there are differences. There are things that we understand innately. We cannot share. We just can't because
Speaker 1 00:15:01 When you can't, you can't transfer, you might share, but you can't transfer.
Speaker 2 00:15:05 Yes, yes. You can't own the experiences. And so for as much as you come together and you believe you're on the same page, it is a continual understanding that as you think you are on the same page, there's checks and balances along the way that you always have to remember that something you say right in the goodness of your heart, from breadth of your intellect, um, you have to make sure that it is being understood. You intend it.
Speaker 1 00:15:41 The thought occurred to me while you were speaking, that it's easy for any of us to categorize or classify someone else who's different from us. That difference could be by skin color. That difference could be by religion, age, anything. It doesn't matter. It's important to remember that within the group of people who are that skin color or that religion or that age, there's differences between them too. They're not, not, they're not monolithic. They're not uniform. There's not one black experience. There's not one Christian experience. There's not what right. And, and it gets back to your first point, which was, first of all, if you recognize your own biases, as you're thinking about these things and then check them or set them aside, whatever we do, then you can really hear what someone else's experiences or you can come to understand the experience as it means something to them. Now, I always think we don't have to agree with that, but I want to know what it is. Yes. At least want to know.
Speaker 2 00:16:43 You need to be able to understand. I have a driver in, I live in DC and I also live in Scottsdale. And I have a driver in Scottsdale names, Saad Mohammad, who is, um, just a wonderful professional. And he has become a friend to us. He is Ethiopian. And when I first met sod, you know, if I get picked up in an airport, I listen to the voice and the accent of the person that's driving me. And if I recognize the accent, I say, oh, you're from wherever. And they're always delighted that somebody under it's, I guess it's unusual that we car and say, oh, you're from Cameroon.
Speaker 2 00:17:36 I also ask. So how long have you been here? What's your experience been? What's it like at home going on, you know, with the civil war or, and what I, and I think that is, and it's because I truly am interested. I want to know, I want my world to be as broad as it possibly can be. And that means that for everything I do know there are thousands of things I don't know, learn, right. Unless I ask questions of someone who is different or who may, that person could end up thinking about things. Exactly. Like I do. You don't know until you ask. So being inquisitive, sincerely curious and interested in the other person, I think is key to any successful getting to yes. Any negotiation. And unless you are truly interested in the other side, the other person, you will never be able to come to reach agreement or come to consensus on,
Speaker 1 00:18:55 Especially in a, in a negotiation, a deal where part of, if you shake hands, part of what happens after that is based on the relationship. If you're buying a car and you're walking out, driving off the lot, you might not see that person again. Or you might not see them for three years. That's a different negotiation, a different deal in the kind of work you do. And the kind of work that I did, w w when we were, I was in DC with you and still do, is the relationship is the relationship matters. The relationship is central to, to the, what happens that you just say, you must struck a deal with the relationship is essential. What happens next? So the curiosity helps a lot being curious, wanting to know, and you know what, it's also important to know what the differences are. One, so you don't trip over them, but two, so you could make something constructive of them. There could be some constructive or productive things that we could ways we could put differences to use. So, so let's, let's, let's transfer. Let's sort of apply what we've been talking about. What's that like, when you, you're helping a client, your client to help them understand something from the perspective of a government agency that they hope one day is their client. So same principles that you've been describing apply. Tell me how they apply. How do you work these concepts when you're helping your clients get clients?
Speaker 2 00:20:26 It's a great question. And I think that in my client support, probably preparation is one of the most important elements of a successful engagement for them. First, I have to understand what is it that my client does. Of course, you have to understand that, right? You have to understand them as if you are part of their company's fabric, you really do need to get to know your clients. So it's always this triangle, you know, you're getting to know your clients and gaining their trust and understanding who they are, what they do, why they need to accomplish certain goals and objectives and help to them, right? Number one, number two, then you have to be able to understand their target client, the government agency that they want to serve and support in a way that lets you help them before they ever speak to that client, connect the dots and in getting the government agency to agree, to take very precious time of their busy calendars, you have to also be able to let that agency stakeholder. And cause usually you're dealing with senior executives on both sides, right? Right. You have to let them know. They have to trust that you know, their business, that you wouldn't waste their time. Exactly. And that the only reason you are bringing a client to them, to brief them on their solutions is
Speaker 2 00:22:32 Context. We know that you are struggling with this and we have a way to help you and your constituents,
Speaker 1 00:22:41 You know, that's. So I think it's a fascinating approach. Amy. I want to come back to something you said, you mentioned the question of you were why look at, think of government contracting as cut and dry. There's a solicitation, it's got requirements in it. You write a proposal, you address, you say, oh, you'll meet the requirements, right? You're talking about something that is not that formulaic or not that cut and dry, not that black and white words on a page. And you know, you're talking about a conversation. You're talking about really some exploration between two parties that you're with. Uh, I loved that. I love that. You mentioned just jot it down. Why w I just wrote the word down at one, because I wanted to come back to it. I forget the exact statement that you made. I always like to understand the what and the why.
Speaker 1 00:23:32 I think that to understand what someone, what something means to someone is to have an answer to the question of why, why do they think that particular thing and not something else? Why are they seeking that particular solution and not a different, why are they, why do they see the world the way they see it and not some other way, it doesn't make what they see or do right or wrong. It's just a different layer of understanding to me, I think understanding one, another's why or something about it gives us a little aha moment, a little insight. And I think creates or deepens if our, if we think of our pages or our own page, the same page as Venn diagram, it makes that Crow, it makes that part of the diagram where we cross over into the same space with each other bigger or deeper, and to know why.
Speaker 2 00:24:23 So I will, um, give an example and, you know, I am not here to market my company. I'm not here to market other companies that I might be a 10 99. Right. But I think a big one, one of the companies that I do consulting through has a very wonderful model. And it has taught me so much whereby in order to best serve the government, you, you have to be able to represent the nexus of government and industry, and how better to do that. Then by teaming industry, former industry executives, and former military, and fed Civ, senior leaders to help your clients have that 360 degree understanding of the target market, the target agency, et cetera. And that in and of itself creates a, we've got to get on the same page scenario before you can even help the client. Because very often, if let's say you're dealing with the retired general or retired Admiral who you're partnering with in support of a client, right?
Speaker 2 00:25:57 You have to be for that former military leader to truly be able to help your client. You have to get that military leader to understand that, look what this client truly needs a view is your ability to help them get access to the people that you still know that are now in the positions you were in, that can guide them and help them. And those former military leaders and fed Civ leaders very often will say, I'm not going to do that. Not about, I'm not a Rolodex. I'm not about just setting up meetings. I'm not going to do that. And so you have to, as an industry person, be able to get to a point with those clients where together you come up with, okay, then what is the way that I can help with doing the things you don't want to do, but with your knowledge, your expertise, your guidance, to, uh, be able to share with the client, what the strategy is, the things that they would never know about the inner workings of that agency and map it out and help them understand the right way to approach those clients.
Speaker 2 00:27:26 And that's invaluable, even if they're not even if that former Gevvie is not going to be in the forefront of that exchange with the agency, that kind of preparation for your client is critical. And you couldn't get to that unless, you know, we couldn't get to that unless I, and that former government person can get on the same page. Yeah. Right. So it's constant. It's just, you're, you're always having to do that. There's, there's something that I've been wanting to share that from earlier, that if I may, um, you know, in today's in America today, there is such divisiveness and everything there, there isn't anything that's not polarized. And yes, it seems that way to me too. So, um, I find that if you can figure out those things that no matter how opposite you may be on issues, there is something that you can find that each other holds in common, right?
Speaker 2 00:28:49 That's the beginning, that's the beginning of being able to get on the same page. So, and then I want to get to what happens if you find you just can't, what do you do then? So again, this is another anecdote I have. I am a dog lover. I've raised English, Mastiffs, you know, dogs that are 215 pounds. And today, uh, along with teeny little dogs, I have a 13 pound poodle who I've had for 13 years who runs our house. And he ran those big dogs. When he had them. He was viciously attacked on mother's day. About three years ago, I was in Baltimore. My sisters had to get him to an emergency clinic. We did get I'm sitting in the waiting room petrified because I had never seen a dog ripped apart like, oh, wow. Sitting next to a gentleman who also was in an emergency room.
Speaker 2 00:29:52 So I asked him to, what are you in for? And, you know, he told me about his dog and I am, so I, I just started my normal, who I am. I started talking to him asking them questions. And it actually, this was during probably the first campaign, the 2016 campaign. So I said, so what do you think about what's going on in the country today? You know, who, who are you supporting? And he was supporting not who I was supporting. And so we started talking about it. I said, well, why do you, why do you think that way? And he said, well, immigrants are the problem. Immigrants are destroying this country. They have taken everything away from us and they are the root of all evil. And that's why I'm voting for the person I'm voting for. And I said, oh, that's interesting. And I said, are you native American?
Speaker 2 00:31:02 And he looked at me and he said, no, no, I'm not. And I said, ah, I said, I'm not either. And so what I think that means if I'm not mistaken, is it in actuality, both you and I are immigrants. At least our descendants were immigrants. And I don't think that we destroyed the country. I think this country was built by immigrants. And so I have a difficult time thinking that immigrants in 2016 or whenever, whatever, whenever that was, that it's that much different than, you know, being an immigrant today, is that much different than an immigrant before we are still building everyone is still contributing. And you can't blame immigrants when, unless you're willing to blame yourself, because I think we are all, unless we're native American. I think we are all immigrants that he looked at me and he sat there for a couple of minutes and he said, you know, you're right.
Speaker 2 00:32:16 And I really never thought about it that way. And I think probably because we both started out talking about dogs right away, we had something in common, but that was because I was listening to him and asking questions that gave me an opportunity to try to get him to see weight. Maybe the things that you see as the root cause of our problems, maybe there is a different way to think about it. And we agreed on that. We also agreed that this conversation is probably not gonna change the outcome of how either one of us will vote, but it did show us that regardless of that, as Americans, we all have things in common and you can have these kinds of conversations. And it was lovely. I mean, it was just wonderful. Before, before, um, we left his, his dog came out first and was going to be fine. I mean, and he was ready to take his dog out. We shook hands mild. And I think that that's the first step in what has to happen in a country that is horribly polarized in order for people to start thinking about how can we think differently, but yet still find a way to unite to solve the problems in our country and globally, that affect all of us, regardless of what side of the,
Speaker 1 00:33:56 You know, whether it's a social situation like that, where you were talking about politics. So work situation, like we've talked about some personal situations like we've talked about, it's easy to think in terms of conclusions, the statement immigrants are in the country is really a conclusion of a reasoning process that gets you to that, that statement, right? And if immigrants are reading the country and you could say how and why I'd be interested in knowing if I could follow the thought process that leads to that conclusion, I might learn something. That's how I think of it. Right? If I open up with that statement, as it is, if the opening statement is the conclusion, there's not much conversation to go from there. You could have opened up with, uh, you could have stated something that was your conclusion, and you guys could have sat there in silence and grumpy toward each other until the dogs came out to me.
Speaker 1 00:34:53 What you did was you reframed this statement, you reframe the situation, I would guess because I know you respectfully, you weren't disrespectful in your manner with him. That's appreciated by all of us, just a little respect, you reframed it and made him think about it in a different way. And that probably enabled the conversation that, that you guys had now, had he been able to offer some evidence of something you didn't know about? He could have reframed it a little bit for you, and that can that's that's to me, that's the mark of a good of a quality conversation, or one of the things you opened with a meaningful conversation. Did it change who you voted for? Who perhaps not, but that's not the only measure of success of the conversation, right? And in other situations, the meaningful conversation, a meaningful conversation could produce behavior change and does produce behavior change.
Speaker 2 00:35:53 I will tell you, I am, I am, uh, have always been. And Adam still pro-choice. However, when I was younger, I would have been in your face. Um, I guess everyone, when they're younger would be in your face more so than as you get older, you become more moderate or more moderated. Right. And instead of my way or the highway, I began asking people, why do you believe that? Why do you believe that? Why, why are you pro-life? What does that mean to you? And I learned so many things that may I honest while I still am pro-choice I completely understand. And respect. I think respect is critical to honestly, respect that you think differently because you believe that from the minute of conception, that is life. That's how you believe. Whereas I may say science says that it is not until this stage that a fetus could live.
Speaker 2 00:37:19 And so I wouldn't think of it as murder, but I, I will not say that what you believe is wrong, it is different. It's different. And I think that that's really hard because you have convictions as a person. Yes. I mean, I will never say, well, I shouldn't even say never, but I don't think, I don't think I could ever say that it is that it is not wrong to murder someone. But think about there, there could be a situation where there was justifiable reason. Right? And so it's, it's just very hard. I have a very dear friend who is, um, uh, uh, seek is just so open to anyone's position on anything and believes that you must understand that that is their reality and that is valid or how they live and how their world exists. And that in his mind, it's not even for you to ever try to convince someone otherwise, rather it is a matter of learning how all beliefs live together in harmony, which is very interesting in business.
Speaker 2 00:38:53 Right. You know, that's, that's difficult to do in politics that might be difficult to do, you know, in spirit. I, I, I, I tend to agree with it, except that I think there are always things that based on your deeply ingrained, uh, beliefs, social and moral beliefs, you're not going to be able to see things the way someone else does. And that kind of gets me to when, when in a situation, do you have to realize that we tried, but we really need to agree that we've, we're always going to disagree. We can't get to yes. Together. We can't be on the same page. And then how do we shake hands and say, thank you. I'm glad to have had this exchange. Um, I'm sorry that at this time we couldn't have an outcome that we believe would have been mutually beneficial or that I believe would have been mutually beneficial, but I respect your position, wish you well, and you know, you've got to leave a door open for perhaps sometime in the future there things will change. And, you know, there will be opportunities to come together on the same page.
Speaker 1 00:40:25 Right. You're right. I agree. I mean, I agree completely from my, in my conflict resolution studies maintenance of a relationship protection, respect of a relationship was always one of several outcomes to a conflict or one of several things that could happen through a conflict. Sometimes substance, sometimes parties cannot reach agreement on the substantive terms of a, of a situation and reach a mutually acceptable. Like you said, getting to yes. Win-win solution, but protecting a relationship might be something that they do agree to and take steps to do that. When you talked about the conversation with the gentleman at the emergency, uh, vet emergency hospital, I mean, that, that, that conversation was going to end when the, when the dogs were, were, were, were brought out, but in a different setting that conversation could have developed some, and maybe there were some investigation to be done.
Speaker 1 00:41:27 Some fact-finding to back up claims that were made, sometimes parties might take next, agreed to take a next step to do just that, that, that gets to a definition of being on the same page or getting on the same page that I'm testing, which is agreeing enough to take a next step together. You weren't, you didn't do that in the, uh, in the doctor's office, but that could have been done in a different setting. The, the, the, the right to life, um, free choice public policy issue is tougher. It's heavily value-laden. And a public policy has to come out one way or the other abortion will be, um, constitutional, or it won't it'll be legal, or it won't, it will be legal after a certain time or won't, or in a certain way, or, right, right. It's, it's got to go one way or the other.
Speaker 1 00:42:22 So there'll be winners and losers in that. And there might not be so much of a same page to get on, except to two things come to mind. One would be respect or the relationship. Okay. I do think that we could put respect of the relationships in our polity, the body politic that is America a little higher than we place it today, because democracy might really depend on it more than on the outcome of every particular public policy question or issue. And the second thing is we could agree to some governing principles that matter as much or more to, uh, to us, uh, as a soft governing representative democracy, then, then the, the, the, that are above in a hierarchy above all PO all also all public policy questions would be subordinate to those principles such as constitutional principles. Now there's not a widespread view of this, but I'm just saying that it's, it's something that we could think about it as something to get on the same page about when we're not ever going to agree on every public policy question and respect, I think sort of greases all of this, right. It just makes it easier for everything else to happen.
Speaker 2 00:43:45 That's correct. And, and it's, I think that as we grow and, you know, growth is not always just a matter of aging, right? But as we grow, you know, young or old, it really is a desire, a continuous desire to learn and understand and be fair, you know, in how you view things, you, it, people might think, oh, to be a leader, you have to never sway from your convictions and maybe true, but your convictions can change. And you can, you can see things if you are growing. And if you're learning, you see things from different perspectives, right? You have to be able to accept the fact that you're gonna be working in and living in situations that one, you either say, I'm not even going to expose myself to this. I choose not to be a part of this, and that's fine. Or if you are going to be a participating contributing member of a community, whether that is, you know, business community, um, uh, civic community, or then you have to be willing to understand that it takes a village.
Speaker 1 00:45:31 You talked earlier about experiences, which make up my perception or our own, my reality by sharing experiences and by sharing views, what we think and why we think that thing, how we came to see something we can, we can create. I believe we can create a shared perception, a shared reality. It might still have borders or boundaries to it, right. It might never be. None of us might ever disappear into a mutual reshared reality. But if you're talking about a relationship and you can't have some shared reality, how do you, how could you call it a relationship? What would there be to, to, to, to relate? If you don't have some shared, you should listen to the podcast. I just published it with, with Dale ludicrous, you know, Dale. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:46:23 Oh, wonderful. And what ha ha. When was that? And how, how can I listen to that?
Speaker 1 00:46:28 This, this past Wednesday, I'll send you the link and he had some fascinating perspectives on, on what you and I are talking about about, and he made the comment that he thinks that we have this, his word, his word incessant need to always be right and relevant, which I loved. And I, and he, we talked about how that can get your defenses up if you're feeling like you're being challenged to be about being right or irrelevant.
Speaker 2 00:46:57 Yeah. And that I'm, first of all, I am very far. I've always thought very highly of Dale, very fond of him. And I can't wait to sit here that podcast. Um, and when the issue about always having to be right, I was going to say something about that before, because one of the things is that I, I do know when I am. Right. But I also know that I can't always be right. Try as I may. You can't always be right. You're not always going to be right. And to be able to come back and say, thank you so much, because you're right. And you have helped me see where I was. Right. I thought you taught me something. Right. And that is what growth is about. And I, that is, that's a wonderful, wonderful point. I w I was thinking how, when I worked in the labor movement, whether it was the lobbying side of that, or just in representing, uh, the workforce, I don't think I ever lost a grievance.
Speaker 2 00:48:08 And I don't, and not because I was always right. But the pause I took the time when there was an issue brought to my attention with both sides to do a little bit of exploration before jumping into a grievance to understand, okay, I have an obligation to represent you. This is what you were saying. Wasn't right. Let's figure out where management was coming from. Let's be honest about what you did or didn't do, and let's figure out is this something, and let's look at the contract and let's figure out is this black and white contractual, right. When yes, I can ensure that that is reversed. Is there some gray right here? Right. Let's and I would do the same with both the worker and the manager separately, and then together. And then at that point, make the determination as to whether or not this is something that we, while we agree to disagree here, we're going to take it to the next step.
Speaker 2 00:49:23 We're going to have to enter into a grievance, but I would be so prepared going into that grievance, that if I ended up taking it into a grievance, I knew that I had the grounds and everything, um, behind me to win that. Now I'd be willing to do it. Even if I lose, you have to, when you represent people, right. It was always with how do we solve this in a way that is going to allow both parties and the company to move forward successfully and to everyone's benefit. And if in a situation where it could mean termination of this employee is, is the right thing, right. Then, you know, so be it, but it was always something that, and I wasn't always, I mean, you're not always going to conduct a discussion this, um, collegially, right, right, right. You can know that at certain times, you exert force, you can, as a negotiating tactic need to take a hard line, but always have the ability to continue to drive that conversation, to get positions, to change so that you get to an outcome that will meet everyone's needs, or at least be agreeable to all parties.
Speaker 2 00:51:00 And then let you from there, go for,
Speaker 1 00:51:03 That's a very interesting situation you described because there is something written in black and white about the contract, so that at least forms a basis or a foundation for that must be addressed facts. And the, and the wording of the contract are they into, are going to shape some of what happens. But if you took the time, as you said, you did to understand a little bit more, where was banishment coming from? What was going on with the, the, the individual, the employee, you might be able to fashion another, a different outcome, right? Then if you just looked at very narrowly, what happened? What are the facts? What's the contract say?
Speaker 2 00:51:40 You approach things from a fact based perspective. You know, facts are facts. People perceive facts differently, but facts are facts. You do your homework, you respectfully approach the situation. Even if you are observing force. And I, I was a very powerful force myself. You know, I, I remember situations where there would be a new vice-president coming in at which they were going to do. You know, we we'd have like a town hall that new vice president would say, and we're going to do this, this, this, and this and the employee that the bargain for employees. And even some of the managers, you could see, you know, I'd be in the back of the room and you could, they would kind of look at me waiting for me to go,
Speaker 1 00:52:32 Or
Speaker 2 00:52:35 I had that kind of power and influence. But it's, it's how you, when you become aware of that, it's how you learn to use that in a way that lets people maintain their self-respect. And that, that is the same thing. It is the same thing in business, in contracts, you may have a contract that is black and white. These are the terms and conditions, right? And you may be righter than reign about what that contract says. You can push for it, you can win then. And then the contract will get terminated. Or you can think in terms of, well, I know that in black and white, they are supposed to pay me this or that, or I'm not supposed to do anything more than this, but what is for the good of the order, what is for the good of the relationship that given tape that will end up ensuring that this becomes a very long or, or remains a very long-term positive, successful relationship. And you have to be able to judge, in what situation you give up, something that you may know, you are quite entitled to order to, to grow and, and continue to build your relationship. And, and people remember the things like that that you will do for them.
Speaker 1 00:54:12 You know, we should, that's a great thought there. What is for the good of the relationship? And we should come back to that for another conversation we'd love to do. I've enjoyed this very much. Amen. I've had fun and I've learned a lot. Thank you.
Speaker 2 00:54:26 Thank you so much. I have too. And I look forward to hearing all of the podcasts that you do, and I would be delighted to come back anytime. You'd like, great. You're welcome. Thank you so much.
Speaker 1 00:54:40 And that's how we see it. My friends, I want to thank Amy for recording today's episode. You can find it at, I see what you mean dot <inaudible> dot com. Plus all the places that you listen to your podcasts, send questions and suggestions through the app. Subscribe and give me a five star rating unless you can't. And let me know why, if you can't and join me next week, we'll be taking a look at how people get on the same page and stay there unless they shouldn't.
