Episode Transcript
Speaker 1 00:00:07 You. And I talked some weeks ago, uh, actually when we first began talking, I think in March, it was women's history month. Right. And yes. And, uh, I should say this. I was in the DC area for a long time in Tampa for four. And I was away from the company that, where I met you for some years before that. So we hadn't been in touch for a while. I had reason from another podcast to call you and ask you a question. Yes. I was talking to Karen Newham and a colleague who's been a podcast guest. She talked to me in prep and in about a behavior, she exhibited in a meeting
Speaker 2 00:00:46 Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:00:46 <affirmative> wasn't crazy. It wasn't, it wasn't outta control. It was in fact, some of her team were really happy to see her say what she said to a particular individual, but she later got called on it by her supervisor mm-hmm <affirmative> and said at our level that's being emotional mm-hmm <affirmative> and she said, yeah, I've heard you say many things that were worse than that, but you're a guy. So I'm a woman. Is this about gender? Or is this about the behavior? No matter who's exhibiting the behavior. So we had that conversation. It caused me to call a few you and a few other women that I worked with to ask if I had ever behaved in a way as a superior that said to you, there was some gender bias there
Speaker 2 00:01:28 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:01:29 And you thought about it and said, <laugh> it was, I told Karen this, when she left, you thought about it and you said no, but <laugh> no, but there was this one time. And you explained us that she, you recall the situation described it to me, that I made you wonder if something, a decision I made had been, might have had something to do with you being a woman of color. So maybe not so much a woman, but a woman of color mm-hmm <affirmative> and we had that conversation. You and I, and, and it was really, it was a fascinating conversation. I'm really glad we had a I'm glad you told me what you told me. I couldn't recall the situation you described. And I remember you saying that you thought about it and made sure it wasn't you imagining something was I really acting that way and it's hard to know.
Speaker 1 00:02:19 Yes, sir. But I respected that you actually ran through that process. And then I said to you, can't tell you what happen, but I can tell you this. I regret having not, you had offered to help me with something I didn't take you up on. And I said, I regret not having taken you up on your offer. Cuz I could have used the help. I, I asked some others to help me who were white, which made you wonder what's is that what this is about? And I said, I'm sorry that that happened in that way and appeared that way. I don't usually operate with any intentionality like that. And I try to be very aware of my own biases. Some could escape me, but I try to be very aware of them. But I remember saying to you, well, I wish I'd taken you up on it because I could have used the help and I would've enjoyed working with you. So I wanted to recall that story between us. It was current on our minds because of the highlighting, the issue of bias in the workplace and, and um, mm-hmm, <affirmative> implicit bias. How do you see the relat between those, between that those kinds of issues between people that are maybe at work, but not a work issue? What do you see as the, as the connection or, or is the same thing going on in different parts of our lives? Is it something different? What do you, what do you think?
Speaker 2 00:03:35 I think that the attributes are very much, same, for instance, in the situation that I described to you, there was a disconnect, there was a lack of understanding. Or so there wasn't offend in receiving right?
Speaker 1 00:03:52 Some door didn't open.
Speaker 2 00:03:54 Yeah. The door did not open. Right? I think even with Karen in the situation that she faced, that there was definitely a misalignment stemming from where that that's the question that, that, that comes into the maybe unconscious biases. That good point. You don't even know that you have good point, but there was a disconnect between her and leadership. There was a, a misalignment in their, in their connection and their communication mm-hmm <affirmative> and their perception. Mm-hmm, <affirmative> very much in their perception of how that situation should have been handled. And when things are not alignment, you're not on the same page. It's the, the same attributes, right? There's a disconnect. We're not sending them, um, the door closed, right? Definitely there's along the way, something, something key, there's a misalignment mm-hmm <affirmative> and it, and, and, and it cause a disruption here, there's a disruption that has happened. I think each attribute takes on a nuance depending on the mm-hmm <affirmative> that, that it's it's that you're in. That
Speaker 1 00:05:07 Seems to make sense. Yeah.
Speaker 2 00:05:08 That, yes, but key attributes, it's all the same. It's all those things come into play. They all lead to that. Not being able or that moment, not being on the page, not being able to get on the same page and then you, and even the difficulty and seeing the opportunity in it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> depending on, because there isn't, you're not standing and receiving the door is closed. And so you're only basing the conversation out of your side, what you're feeling. And you had said this, I, I don't wanna do this. What you're feeling, how you're viewing mm-hmm <affirmative> emotions, everything, and it's, it's in a capsule all in you.
Speaker 1 00:05:49 I like hearing from you. When I call to ask you about my behavior as a supervisor, I like in a team when someone else has sees something different and sizes it up in a different way. I like hearing those things because to me, it's an opportunity to use your word for me to add to what I know
Speaker 2 00:06:09 Mm-hmm <affirmative>.
Speaker 1 00:06:11 And then when we do that together as a couple, as a team, parent child, whatever it is, when we do it together, I think something kind of magical can happen. It's not just being on the same page in that situation. It can be being on the same page a little bit more beyond the situation. You start to build some trust with each other in the relationship way of trust is bigger than a particular situation. You come to have a better relationship, which over time, if you keep doing these kinds of things, the relationship strengthens, you're probably better and better over time in any situation. What are your, just tell me your thoughts. I've been rambling.
Speaker 2 00:06:55 I I, and I told you, when you had called me that I just commend you because the action you took to just reach out and get that input to get that insight. A lot of people don't do that. You know, I am who I am, like Popeye said that best. Right? <laugh> um, oh my gosh, I'm dating my ears. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:07:18 Um,
Speaker 2 00:07:18 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:07:19 Yeah. But I never thought about being, I am who I am a limitation
Speaker 2 00:07:24 To a certain degree. Its it is because then,
Speaker 1 00:07:28 But I mean it could, it doesn't have to be,
Speaker 2 00:07:30 It doesn't have to be, it doesn't have to be, but it, it, it could become that. Oh yeah. When the worst room for improvement and I, I share this, I, I tell this to my, especially my grandkids, but to my daughters too. Um, and try to live it out, even in my life, in certain areas, we just, as human beings, we are better when we're growing. When we're knowing in some way, shape, form or fashion, if you have, I am who I am attitude, then there's no growth nor is there any opportunity for that? I agree. And in, in a situation where, for example, in the, my, that we're dealing with right now, if there is no us even getting to getting on the same page, everything that's going into that act to get there, the conversations, the, the feeling, the, all of that, all of that is growth. And, and, and the outcome is that that growth hasn't happened along the way that has even enabled us and, and allowed us to, to get, to get on the same page, to get to the end result, to get to the end result the way that we
Speaker 1 00:08:37 Together, right, right
Speaker 2 00:08:38 Together to be the, on all the, that we said, the migrate, this is happening, but how we embrace it and the outcome of it, we have full control of that, and this is what we wanna do. So good point, Even reaching and all that. And then
Speaker 1 00:08:55 That's a good point. We don't have control over. What's been decided we have control over what we decide, how we do it.
Speaker 2 00:09:01 Exactly. And just being in one accord, which is what, getting on the same pages and, and how to get there, what we're gonna absorb together. Um, embracing the differences, making them opportunities, finding the winning ways, the winning factors, the winning nuances of the application. Something can be as simple as that. And then one thing I love that you mentioned are the almost intangible wins that happen along the way. Mm-hmm <affirmative> that you strengthen the relationship. And this is, I I think if anything, that I'm good at I'm very good. I wouldn't think so. Because if people say, are you a people person? I'm quick to say no, don't like people, but I <laugh>, you know, are you an extrovert? No, I'm an introvert. But when I say that people laugh at me, but I'm very good at building teams. I'm very good at building camaraderie with people.
Speaker 2 00:09:51 I'm very good at making people feel comfortable around me. And that has made a wonderful manager when I was in that role that made me Excel in what I do, even in the role that I am right now, which is project manager. So the intangible would be everything that you just said. It's, it's, uh, some type of respect, the, and respect for one another. Mm-hmm <affirmative> the willing to work with one another. The level of understanding that you have, where if another project comes along, we're still gonna go through, but it's gonna be easier. I have a colleague that I work in and she tickles me because she's ruffle feathers all the time, all the time. And when I first came into this role, it was very hard. It took some time to, she had walls. She, she definitely was. I am who I am. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, I've been here for, for since the beginning of the time,
Speaker 1 00:10:45 Time,
Speaker 2 00:10:46 And this is the way it happens. And, and this, that, and the other don't tell me, I write down everything. Even as you're speaking, she was that person. And so fast forward now I've been here for five, six years and she still is that person mm-hmm <affirmative>, but the difficulty, the difficulty we had, we can communicate well. Um, I, I honestly, after getting off the phone with her, I know I needed some Kahlua and coffee. It was, it was that type of conversation, every conversation. And wasn't even sure if she heard me, it was just, it was just very much. Mm
Speaker 1 00:11:20 That's hard. And that's stressful
Speaker 2 00:11:23 Now through, because we've have gone through shifts and things we've had, uh, gone through projects or, um, uh, even in, in her realm, I've had to assist her through some of her deliverables and projects and stuff. And so the intangible things that, everything that you mentioned, the, the, the communication may not be what you would call better, but it's in a way that we're, we're giving and receiving, right? Mm-hmm,
Speaker 1 00:11:48 <affirmative> some doors open
Speaker 2 00:11:50 Exactly. The doors open in some way. Uh, so when we work together, again, it gets easier. We're able to do it better. We're able to do it faster. We,
Speaker 1 00:11:58 We
Speaker 2 00:11:58 Did it a line quicker, may not agree on everything, but there is something
Speaker 1 00:12:04 You could even narrow the differences faster.
Speaker 2 00:12:06 Exactly. Exactly. There's a connection that has happened. That is foundational in the relate. And it just builds over time. As you work together, easier, better. Those are those intangible ones that, uh, like, you know, you mentioned them that are just key very much. So I
Speaker 1 00:12:25 Have a question for you while I'm writing down some notes here. I know you, and I would take a guess at what you did, uh, broad approach and you tummy, if I'm right, because I want to ask you about it. You're pretty cool. And even if you had a reaction where maybe you didn't feel so cool inside, I think you probably remain pretty cool on the exterior and you keep your wits about you, meaning you don't get spun up some on something in your mind, you might stay focused and you might ask me about something. <affirmative> if I used a word or phrase, if I was kind of intense in my communication, you might gently very respectfully. Just ask me more about it.
Speaker 2 00:13:04 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:13:06 So where you might've had a reaction to it. You're not gonna act on that feeling. Mm-hmm <affirmative> you're gonna just, you would ask me about it. My guess is over time. She learned to trust you because you weren't worried about her bark. You could listen to the bark and you could say, Tom, all right. I I'm not, I followed you this far. I didn't get that part. Tell me more about that. Like, if you, if you act like you're, you used the word curiosity very early in the conversation, and I noted it. If you act like you're not act, if you are curious, you say, I wanna understand. I don't know if I'm gonna agree, but I wanna understand what did you mean when you said, or, or even you feel very strongly about it. So something is important to you. Tell me more about that, cuz I'm not clear on what matters what's important, or you could ask the question in different ways. Mm-hmm <affirmative> my guess is you didn't become afraid of the bark or defensive with a that you, you just treated it respectfully and tried to understand it better. And then over time she felt comfortable with a trust build between you and maybe even a pattern of communication between you, where it got efficient. Like you said.
Speaker 2 00:14:14 Yeah,
Speaker 1 00:14:14 Because I know you, I wanted to ask the question that way. Did it start with you asking for more about the stuff that might have made you want to have Kahlua a Kahlua, but did you ask for more information to see if you could understand better?
Speaker 2 00:14:27 I absolutely did. Absolutely. Did. I asked for more information to see if, uh, so I could get a better understanding where she, where she mentally, where she was, right, right. Where she was, why do you feel this way? Why are you so intense? Mm-hmm <affirmative> about something mm-hmm <affirmative> and then
Speaker 1 00:14:48 People don't get asked that question.
Speaker 2 00:14:50 Yeah. And so when you, when they open up and at least give you a glimpse into that, you could take that information and say, okay, so maybe it's you don't even like doing this. I and, and because you don't do it often, you don't feel comfortable with it. So anything that has to do it becomes a, a little on the side mm-hmm <affirmative> OK. I got it. So that means I need to support you more. That changes the way I'm gonna interact with you.
Speaker 1 00:15:25 You know, see that's a valuable piece of information.
Speaker 2 00:15:27 Exactly. I'm gonna find those, those weak spots, the things that are concerning you, those holes, those, those sores about this mm-hmm <affirmative> conversation about the situation about this act. And I'm going to find a way to support you if you can find, and when, when you are able to, and, and this, this so helps with getting a line with getting people in alignment so much as they're talking, as they are, um, sharing their voice, as they're showing you their disconnect in their, you know, aversion to, to supporting, becoming a part of what, however you wanna put it. If you ask questions, even the uncomfortable was even when they come back and they bark, even when they, or even when they shut down and then you are able to see the so spots as they see them and can offer support there, man,
Speaker 1 00:16:28 That opens doors. That,
Speaker 2 00:16:29 That is that, that that's the, that, you know, those are of little keys that unlock the locks that opens the doors.
Speaker 1 00:16:37 <laugh> that's beautiful. I love it.
Speaker 2 00:16:39 The path I love
Speaker 1 00:16:41 It. Yeah. That's beautiful. And my guess is you also ask more questions than you spent more time asking questions than you did telling her what you thought
Speaker 2 00:16:51 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:16:52 Now there's a time when you've got to do that,
Speaker 1 00:16:56 Including, you know, your feelings about situations are legitimate and, and valid too. You have something at stake and you, and as a, as a, as a leader of a team that the team's got something at stake as a member of a contractor, a company on a contractor, you've got something, you've got things at stake. Mm-hmm, <affirmative>, you've gotta have, but you, you probably timed it. Here's the other thing I've noticed. Sorry. My mind switched. Here's the other thing I've noticed when I've done, what you described. I get more information that's useful in helping me explain my concerns or my object, my objectives, not objections. My object. I, I can better tie it to what they've, where they're at. What they're think what they're
Speaker 2 00:17:42 Absolutely. That, that, um, are we speaking the same language? Yes that's. Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:17:50 And so, and so you, I, if you can resist, if you, can you remember Dan Morford?
Speaker 2 00:17:56 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:17:57 Dan and I did, uh, I released two episodes this weekend. Last week, there were two, I cut ours into two parts and we talked more about social and political situation in the country. And he talked about what I was just about to say. He talked about a lot about, we're not having a dialogue with each other. If we're just both shooting our opinions and our views at each other opinions and views could be valid. There could be good information in them. There could. Right. But, but if you're just firing them at each other, we're not having a con a dialogue. These are always real big on the word, the notion and the act of dialogue
Speaker 2 00:18:32 Mm-hmm
Speaker 1 00:18:32 <affirmative>. And so if you can resist the temptation, this is what made me think of him. You know, when you find yourself thinking of what you're gonna say, while someone's talking, you're not listening <laugh>. And if you can list, resist the temptation to shoot back what you think and do what you did and pause, ask for more information. So you get some layers or levels of meaning. You have your own aha moment.
Speaker 2 00:18:58 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:18:59 And, and you might say to yourself, I understand why she feels so strongly. Maybe she comes across in ways in the organization that make people not wanna listen to her. So she doesn't feel very heard. Maybe she was blamed for something one time in her career. That really she didn't really do. Or maybe she, we don't know what it is. Mm-hmm <affirmative>, but when you learn those things, it, to me, it gives you more information. That's for me, context, for what I want to contribute to the conversation, I have better context now, and I can connect things better. I couldn't do that. If the first words outta my mouth, after you stopped talking were, let me tell you what I think.
Speaker 2 00:19:39 Yes.
Speaker 1 00:19:40 Cause I probably didn't hear what you said anyway. If I'm ready to tell you what I think. And if I paused and said, wow, that was that I, you gave me a lot of information. I know more now, but I, I, I have some more questions. Can I ask you to elaborate on some of these things? Oh, I know more. If you pause and go down that path, I always found a more effective way cuz in every situation we've got something that we need to be bringing to it too. Mm-hmm <affirmative> we're not just doing someone else's even as a contract, you're not doing their bidding, you got a contract, you've got things that you're legally obligated for and be measured about and you're gonna get paid for or not. So you can't just do what someone tells you. You've got something at stake that you bring to it as an equal. So you're not abandoning that, but you're getting more information. So you can have a better conversation when it's time for you to bring something. Sometimes I find people give you solutions to problems that you were wrestling with, but you hadn't thought I of just by listening to their perspective on something that's
Speaker 1 00:20:42 Okay. I hadn't thought of it that way. Now I could do it just is aha. Little aha moment within a bigger aha moment. <laugh>
Speaker 2 00:20:48 Mm-hmm <affirmative> absolutely. <laugh> absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:20:52 Have you had training in that? Is this just a Lola thing from, you know, this is gonna,
Speaker 2 00:20:56 It is, it is, it's a natural thing. It's a Lola thing. And now I have taken training to optimize it. Sure. Communication class and um, you know, just E even the ones that go into more diversity and inclusion and seeing people from different walks of life and appreciating their, their backgrounds and where they come from all of that. But it is a, it is a it's, it's pretty much a natural gift. The great example with, uh, this colleague of mine is, and I think for her personality, this weighs more than everything, even as you're trying to get into alignment, even as you're, when you're trying to get on the same page, if you go about it also with the idea of disrespect, not I come with my, you know, my PhDs and my little acronyms behind my name, know me, I come with mine, know me.
Speaker 2 00:21:51 Um, you know, my voice is better, anything like that, right? It's just, just giving the simple things that your mom will probably taught you from way, you know, from being a child mm-hmm <affirmative>, you know, mm-hmm, <affirmative> respect huge, huge. And I think with her, her person, the, you know, coming into this program, the lead that was in place before I came and was a different dynamic. And so coming in and just really opening the door, opening the conversations, even through her, her bark sessions and they were definitely sessions and just made, making sure that the underlying thing was respect very much key. And I do that with, with my teams and leadership, you know, even when I was there, the, um, in leadership and management, just, just respect mm-hmm <affirmative> as respect your voice, know that you are heard that it is also a key. It is a it's it's a very important key mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:22:56 In,
Speaker 2 00:22:57 It's assisting this and, and being the, almost like the cart as you're pushing along the rails to, you know, the road of alignment, um, <laugh> that right?
Speaker 1 00:23:07 Yeah. It's hard to have much else in relationship trust or,
Speaker 2 00:23:10 Or, and, and it goes in everywhere. Trust relationships. Yeah. The relationships I have with my grands trust and believe one thing that is, is key to their self confidence is I do respect them. I do respect
Speaker 1 00:23:23 Them. That's a great point. So
Speaker 2 00:23:24 That it plays into everything wows, such an important key. You know, it, it, that in that realm, their self confidence, they understand their worth because of the respect that they get from their Nana and, and love and everything too. But it plays into all those reals with, in a professional environment.
Speaker 1 00:23:44 Oh, love actually that's
Speaker 2 00:23:46 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:23:47 That's profound. We've been, we could dig into an hour about what you just said, cuz I hadn't thought about it that way with children. How would a child learn to respect themselves if they didn't get respect from those around them at the ti at the youngest age mm-hmm <affirmative> how would you learn, ever learn it?
Speaker 2 00:24:06 You don't have the definitely don't learn about being told.
Speaker 1 00:24:08 Well, and you don't have the wherewithal to judge, to separate yourself from mm-hmm. <affirmative> what mom says. Dad says, grandma says, uh, uh, and, and parse it and categorize it and say, I don't accept that. Now you're little. You're just being told what you are by someone else. And you're probably internal.
Speaker 2 00:24:25 Yeah.
Speaker 1 00:24:26 If you're shown disrespect, that's all, you know,
Speaker 2 00:24:29 That's all, you know,
Speaker 1 00:24:30 If you're shown respect, you're not only teaching someone to be respectful. You're teaching them to respect themselves.
Speaker 2 00:24:37 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:24:38 That's powerful. I never thought of it. I mean, I'm sure there's low libraries full of research on that kind of thing. Right. Child development. But I never thought about it. Cuz if in the flash way you said it, I connected it to the work situation.
Speaker 2 00:24:54 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:24:55 Look, let's, let's be honest. If someone's bit of a bully in conversation, then not being respectful.
Speaker 2 00:25:01 Oh absolutely not.
Speaker 1 00:25:03 They, we could understand the reasons why it doesn't make it. Okay. It just makes it more understandable. It may be easier. You're trying to find a ways to work with. Right.
Speaker 2 00:25:12 And just be told you're still, the door is not fully open. Right? Right. There's something, some type of wall something's being blocked. And so you're not getting the full
Speaker 1 00:25:23 Well I, and I could hear you're right. And I could hear you in your thoughts going don't don't don't test me. You don't need to test me <laugh> you don't need to test me. If you tell me what's on your mind, I'm gonna respect it. Mm-hmm <affirmative> I'm gonna try to do something with it in my role. Don't make me work. <laugh> don't test me to make me work to get there. Just talk to me. I, I, I, I just, that's so funny cuz I could hear it in your head and I cuz I feel the same. It's like, no it's not necessary. Don't do that.
Speaker 2 00:25:55 Totally.
Speaker 1 00:25:57 I don't need to be tested. Trust me one time. Trust me one time.
Speaker 2 00:26:01 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:26:02 And uh, if you, if I, if I'm good to my word you'll know and if I'm not, you're gonna know
Speaker 2 00:26:07 You're gonna know. And then you can
Speaker 1 00:26:09 Never trust me again if you don't want to, but stop testing me. <laugh> cause that's not respectful. The irony is we're not respectful of ourselves when we act that way.
Speaker 2 00:26:20 Exactly.
Speaker 1 00:26:21 Now I can say this about myself. I've had probably more, more temper over the course of my lifetime than I wished I had. And I learned it from my dad, not blaming my dad, but saw the behaviors and I've copied them. Been through marriage counseling, been through individual counseling. I'm spent a lot of time thinking about those kinds of things. Like just self reflection. It took a long time to figure it out. Lola, it took me a long time to realize that when I was so upset about a situation, it was often relationships. It could have happened at work, but it was more, much more relationships in personal private relationships. If I got to that point where I was that wound up, that I had to raise my voice to be heard. First of all, I was not being heard. So there's a damn pool thing to do, cuz that's a bad means to the end.
Speaker 1 00:27:08 You're not being heard. You're shutting down that opposite shutting doors shutting down communication. Second, you got yourself in a bad place. Does not matter what anyone else is doing. You got yourself in a bad place and you're actually not being respectful of yourself. If I had to, I learned and it kind of came to me in a flash like after years, step back and go, no, you know what? This is a sign that I'm past some point where I should have made a different choice. And the reason I'm acting the way I'm acting is because I didn't make that choice sooner or earlier. And now I'm feeling kind of desperate
Speaker 2 00:27:42 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:27:44 And gonna show that desperation and that stress through the voice, the temper and it's bad all the way around. And it starts with, you know, what, if you respected what you need, if you're not getting what you need and you recognize that and you respect that for yourself, you just make a different choice. Calmly mm-hmm <affirmative> not without pain, not without sacrifice, maybe not without loss, but you could make a different choice. When you got yourself to the point, Lou, where you were showing that kind of behavior to be heard, you had it all backwards. You had it all turned around and tangled up. And so when you are bullying conversation, communication, you know, actually not being respectful of yourself first and then disrespecting the person you're talking to second mm-hmm <affirmative>. And if you unwind all that, you get back to yourself and you get back to the storage and you get back to where and you get back to the only thing you can control.
Speaker 2 00:28:45 Mm-hmm <affirmative> you're absolutely right. Me,
Speaker 1 00:28:48 My thoughts, my feelings, my choices. So maybe have made different choices, not just to not raise the voice. I spent a lot of years like trying to not raise the voice when I felt like raising my voice. No. When I had this realization, the urge went away, I was like, oh, you know what? I see it now. I don't have to
Speaker 2 00:29:06 Do that.
Speaker 1 00:29:06 I see it. Now I don't have to do that. And it wasn't about just what was communicated from me to someone else that was, I can do this in a different way in my mind and my heart it's gonna mean different. Yeah. Paths. But that's what I was. I actually almost afraid of before.
Speaker 2 00:29:26 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:29:28 Like I was, I, I come from a long line of divorce And when the girls, I told my dad, one time every grandparents got divorced and uncles got divorced and everybody, they remarried had been divorced. And I told my dad one time and I was a grown man. I said, dad, we don't have a family tree. We have a divorce shrub.
Speaker 2 00:29:48 <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:29:49 We got this little thing. And there's all these offshoots of marriage divorce, married, divorce, marriage, divorce, marriage divorce. He laughed his ass off because in a flash it's like he, he saw it. He knew was true. So when I got married to the girl's moms, I mom, I didn't want to get divorced. Yeah. I wanted them to RA be grow up in a family that was a nuclear family and come back from college to their room, right? Yeah. Yeah. Well, it wasn't destined for that. And I, and I didn't want accept that.
Speaker 2 00:30:17 Mm-hmm <affirmative>
Speaker 1 00:30:18 And so then once you make that choice, it's avoidance really? <laugh> ironic, isn't it? Yeah. It's avoidance. Once you avoid
Speaker 2 00:30:28 Same, same attributes. Yep. <laugh>
Speaker 1 00:30:30 Once you avoid being honest with yourself about something. Oh, it just gets more complicated after that
Speaker 2 00:30:35 It gets much more complicated.
Speaker 1 00:30:37 And you're right about the attributes, cuz same thing that people at work, people on team see things and they know <affirmative> they know, or they they're sizing it up in some way, but they're think they see things and they're thinking about it. And you might not be thinking that they're seeing things and thinking, but they are. And then they might be more onto something than you wish. And people could be making things up in their minds. They aren't not good for anybody. So you that's just bad for the team. I always love talking to you cuz we get deep. We got deep on a prep call. We got deep on this call. Is there anything else you wanted to go over?
Speaker 2 00:31:10 No, I think this has been a wonderful conversation. I was gonna say we do get deep. Let me find out when is your birthday? September
Speaker 1 00:31:20 Virgo
Speaker 2 00:31:20 Thing. See, that's why that's the problem. That's the problem. Right?
Speaker 1 00:31:26 Well what's the problem. It's
Speaker 2 00:31:27 In our nature. And then we get together and then, you know, it explodes into this. That's exactly. That's the problem. I
Speaker 1 00:31:33 Got it. You know, we could do, we didn't get much to the social and political issues that we could talk about. I'd like to have, I'd love to lift some of these same ideas out of the work. What was more of a work conversation and just plunk them down in some social and, and, and political conversation. Maybe we just take a pass at that another time.
Speaker 2 00:31:52 Yes, absolutely.
Speaker 1 00:31:54 I would love to have wonderful
Speaker 2 00:31:55 Conversation.
Speaker 1 00:31:56 I've enjoyed it very much. I have had listeners tell me that they, I enjoy sort of eavesdropping in on these kind of conversations where they're hearing people. I, I, I think that was a very real conversation and mm-hmm <affirmative> I hope, I always hope listener. We have something in the conversation. That's an aha moment for a, for a listener.
Speaker 2 00:32:15 Absolutely. That's the whole point
Speaker 1 00:32:17 And that they can, they can go, all right, let me rethink that. Let me try something this way. I'm going into a convers.
Speaker 2 00:32:23 I'm not, oh, damn. That's me.
Speaker 1 00:32:25 Yeah. Yeah. Right, right, exactly. So I've enjoyed it very much. And, and we covered quite a bit about work situations. Mm-hmm <affirmative> but we went deep into what was personal about it. Meaning how we like, how we work, how we think and feel and how we interact with each other. Yes. Thank you, Bola.
Speaker 2 00:32:46 Thank you. Thank you so much. This has been an honor and definitely a pleasure and
Speaker 1 00:32:50 Truly
Speaker 2 00:32:51 Thank you. Have wonderful weekend. Happy Easter. Likewise.
Speaker 1 00:32:54 Thank you. Thank you. Thank you, right. Bye-bye bye. And that's how we see at my friends. I want to thank Lola for recording today's episode. You can find it at, I see what you mean.casto.com. Plus all the usual places, send questions and suggestions through your app. Subscribe and give me a Fivestar rating unless you can't. In which case, tell me why and join me next week. When we take another look at how to get on the same page and stay there unless.
